nubbly5

I am just negotiating the purchase of a know DF YF bird and will attempt to produce some known Green/YF chicks which I want to test mate to blue. Fingers crossed i get the opportunity to try this. From what I have been reading, genetically YES Yellowface is recessive TO GREEN but dominant TO BLUE (similar to the greywing, clearwing, dilute genes). But as far as the matrix is concerned they make absolutely no comment as it's a book about parrot genetics in general not about how the budgerigar should then be fit into a show matrix. Personally I really don't much care if it is changed but I think that the YF is pretty good where it is now and in reality I don't think that the matrix should be used to try and argue where a bird sits genetically. I know this was a big ANBC issue a year or two ago. Then the further question to that would be did you ever produce both YF and blues (not df yf) in the same nest from green parents?

okay I find all this a bit confusing so went back to my genetics bible "A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin The details on YF genetics in this book indicates what RIP is saying is correct. Parblue (as geneticists describe yellowface blue) is on the same allele as blue and green. SO we know that birds carry 2 genes on one allele that determines what the birds genetic attributes will be so a bird can carry either a gene for green and a gene for YF OR a gene for green and a gene for blue it cannot carry a gene for green AND YF AND blue. So a green in effect cannot mask yellowface but can be split for it (as green is dominant to YF and is on the same allele). If YF occurred on a different allele to both green and blue THEN a green could mask YF but on the same allele with green being domiant to YF it has to be described as split for. Quoted directly: The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective. His breeding expectations for Parblue matings (in this example Normal denotes Green, Parblue would be Double Factor and ParblueBlue would be Single Factor): Parblue x Normal = 100% Normal/Parblue Normal/Parblue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue Normal/Parblue x Normal/Parblue = 25% Normal, 50% Normal/Parblue, 25% Parblue Parblue x Blue = 100% ParblueBlue Parblue x ParblueBlue = 50% Parblue, 50% ParblueBlue ParblueBlue x Blue = 50% ParblueBlue, 50% Blue Normal/Parblue x Blue = 50% Normal/Blue, 50% ParblueBlue Normal/Blue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue Normal/Parblue x Normal/Blue = 25% Normal, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% ParblueBlue Normal/Blue x ParblueBlue = 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% ParblueBlue, 25% Blue My only question to everyone now is has ANYONE or ANYONE you know produced a YF from a green parent? Or even a green x a non YF (or DF YF) blue?

So Daz what's the answer?

Who is the state ring steward for BSSA? - they will know who the rings were sold to.

Wow! Well done - our very own celeb

Just talking to RIP now (on the phone) trying to understand the BLEEDING YF better........ sigh. Her comments are: Green, YF blues and blues are all on the same allele so you can get can't get a green thats both split for blue and yellowface. My bad....... My thinking was that the YF could be masked by the green AND the green could still be split for blue. Doh! Sooooo confusing.

One of the parent greens is masking YF (although I believe that this (breeding a YF from 2 greens) has not been qualified as actually ever having happened). Both parents are split for blue. Both parents are split for greywing. The cock bird is split for ino. The ino chicks are hens. Others have 66% chance of being a cock (50% of which will be split for ino), 33% chance of being a hen. Yellow ino hen also has a 50% chance of being split for blue. Apart from the visual greywing all other chicks have a 66% chance of being split for greywing, 33% chance of being non split for greywing. YAY! QUIZ!

How on earth did he get albino out of a yellowfaced lacewing spangle - Could he not see the wing marking due to the spangles?

That sounds really interesting Splat & Macka - can you explain what happens? How many clubs? How are the selections run? What criteria do you use for determination between UBC & BC?

Outcomes should be all normals (might be cinnamon or opaline hens come popping out - or some other recessive varieity if both are split for it), if the cock is split for blue then you will get greens and blues but if not they will all be green. If hen is visual violet as in cobalt violet then 50% chance of dark greens (or cobalts) and 50% chance of light greens (or skyblues), all with 50% chance of carrying the violet factor.

For us thats NSV/NSC any confused WA-ers.

Is that a test or a proper question? In other words do you want me to answer that or do you want other people to look it up and then answer that???

Beauties Splat. They are gorgeous! Best of Luck at the show.

Hi there clr Sorry I can't help much re the fogger and how toxic it might be to the bird - might depend on the active ingredient that was in the fogger as to how toxic it may or may not be to the bird. As far as the bird getting fleas. Dog and cat fleas are generally fairly host specific and although when they are deperate they will bite humans (and I assume other animals too), they will not live on them. So little chance that your bird will have dog fleas. There are some prorierty products that you can use to treat feather lice and mites on birds and these products will also affect fleas but is unnecessary. If you can tell me what was IN the fogger that you used I MIGHT be able to determine if the bird might be okay with it. No guarantees though.

Are you quite sure Daz? Referring to the ANBC Nat Standard there are only 4 varieties listed in the AOSV calss. Saddleback, DEC, Darkwing & Suffused White/Yellow. As Brownwing currently has no set standard would they not have to go in NSV/NSC not AOSV?

Did you get the chance to buy any?

AND WA judges (for whatever obscure reason they chose) decided that the NSV/NSC (Non standard variety/non standard colour - which I assume corresponds with your AOV Non-standardised) cannot be eligible for any top bench awards so no best in grade, etc can be best NSV/NSC but then there are usually stuff all of those represented at our shows. This I think is a bit of a shame as it does little to encourage Novice breeders who might not have really settled out their varieties etc. Would love to see a picture of her. We had a white one on the bench here for a bit and I had the job to try and convince the breeder that it was indeed a Dom Pied Lacewing (which for some obsure reason he did not agree with - it was quite a pretty bird.

Yep! Can be a real problem in breeding cabinets too when the parents get it into their heads that they do not want the babies around anymore for whatever reason.

Lovely Kaz!!! Should be called Pretty not Nasty she doesn't look Nasty at all.

okay Squeak...... Violet greywing to me looks more like a strongly marked clearwing rather than a greywing. Usually for greywings the markings are a darker grey than this. Having said that though he is pretty decent if he is either a greywing or a clearwing. Nice deportment and a reasonable head for either of these varieties but with heavy wing carriage. Mating him to a lacewing hen........????? Well the lacewing hens markings to start with are very poor. She should have stronger cinnamon markings on her wings and tail. She is okay but has only average deportment and strikes me as a bit on the "dumpy" side. Reasonable feather but not great and a shortish mask. To be honest I'm not sure you will gain anything by combining these 2 varieties. All the babies will be split for clearwing (or greywing) and all the cocks will also be split for lacewing but all will appear visually as normals. The only interest will be from the colour and you can't tell if the hen is a blue or a grey or if she is a dark factor. Personally I don't think this is a great pairing in a variety sense. On a purely bird basis it's okay but you are not really going any way to improving the qualities of either bird although the wing carriage of the lacewing should help the clearwing. Also just remember too that it's sometimes really hard to see the "real" bird from a small photo so if I've got it wrong please forgive me.

Great stuff and a lovely job done too! Bet those birdies will love the flight room!

Hi Jlee Sorry you felt that you might get some reprisals from your post. Personally I've been breeding showbirds I cabinets for the last 9 years. Years before that my mother & I bred budgies together in a colony situation for many years (3 different aviaries). We even bred show birds this way but of course could not really be sure of the parentage (which makes it hard when you want to breed better birds). On the whole we had little trouble and good success breeding our birds but a few incidents led me to understand the drawbacks of this breeding system. Of particular note was in one aviary where all seemed very well for a few different rounds - all the birds got on well, we had more than enough boxes to go around (always had at least 2 per hen) thought all was sweet. Then one morning doing the regular bird check we found one hen with her beak completely ripped off. We never knew who did it, there was no evidence on other hens and we didn't have mice THAT big!!! Our aviaries were set up so that hawks, owls etc could not get access to the outside of the cage so we could only assume it was a hen demarkation dispute!!! She went on to recover and learned to eat without the majority of her to beak but the attack was violent and definitely unexpected. Never the less we had great results over many years with only handful of incidents which we wre prepared to accept as part of the deal. Really it just depends on what you want to do, what you are prepared to put the birds through in regards to risk and what outcomes you are after. It's not illegal to breed birds in either way so people can make the decision on the system that best suits them. Hope you find a nice club and have some good budgie breeding successes.

okay I have made an attempt to answer these first lot. A lot of the results will also depend on what the birds might be concealing in the recessive form so opalines, cinnamons, inos, lacewings etc etc etc (any of the recessive traits) have a chance of popping out - particularly cinnamon and opaline.

The comment I've heard is that birds that breed feather dusters also breed birds with your best feather - maybe something to that coz this one is lovely. Hope her hip is good enough for you to use her as a stock bird.