nubbly5

The Challenge, Gerald S Binks A Guide to Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots, Dr Terry Martin BVSc The 2 bibles for me particularly the second one for genetics. Otherwise lots of questions for experienced breeders and lots of trial and error as well.

Thanks RIP! Up to 41 rings on now and heaps of little babies still for rings so going off like a frog in a sock indeed!!!! :rofl: The couple of infertile rounds have been firmly made up by 2 of my old boys (who I thought might be over the hill) firing and producing stacks of fertile eggs. Also a couple of surprises like a cock bird that I didn't realize was a brother to Nats 3rd place boy, down to a super cin opaline who went to nats as 3rd bird having a great round. Actually very pleased with the results so far and even the cold manky snaps of weather haven't knocked them around as much as expected. I'm really looking forward to seeing the chicks mature - this is the best bit about breeding exhibition budgies in my opinion.

My guess would be that if they don't appear on the same allele (like greywing, clearwing, dilute or green, yellowface, blue) then a bird can be split for any number of recessive varieties.this is the answer mate what rip said a bird can be split for up to two sex linkages also well not so much split but can be say domanant pied cock split for cinnamon and an opaline spangle hen the chicks would be spangle hens and cocks domanant pied spangle hens and cocks normals hens and cocks and dompied hens and cocks plus if you stuck yellowface into it 5o percent chicks would be yf and all cocks would be ...split for opaline and split for cinnamon make sense you can put in basically anything you want to be bothered trying to archive patience is keyThank you GB for persevering The thing is I am not so interested in a pairing outcome so much as how many varieties one budgie can be split for, but thank you for trying. okay I'll try and make it clearer, sorry.So take a normal green cock bird for example. So on that allelic series appears also blue and yellowface so because only 2 genes can be present at one allele then it could be either split for YF OR split for blue but not both.Also it could be split for greywing OR split for clearwing OR split for Dilute but not all 3 at the same time. As blackeyed self is technically a cinnamon dilute you have to remember that this too is on that same allelic series.It could also be split for recessive pied as this is a different allele.It could also be split for fallow as this is a different allele.The same with Sex linked recessive varities. Clearbody and Ino (or lacewing) appear on the same allele so a cock bird can be split for clearbody OR split for ino but not both. But it can be also split for cinnamon as this is a different allele.It can be split for opaline as this is a different allele.(A hen can't be split for any sex linked trait but can be split for any normal recessive trait).It can also be split for any other recessive variety or sex link recessive varieity that appears on a different allele say blackface, darkwing, slates, saddlebacks etc.You could work it out on a bird by bird basis but you can't put a firm figure on it as it will depend on what the bird actually is as to what it can be split for.Thank you Nubbly, I think I have that a cock can be split for up to 8 varieties, does that sound right to you? Well it really depends on how many recessive varieties there are and how many appear on seperate alleles. So how many recessive and sex link recessive traits are there actually?....... Kinda like how long is a piece of string really. I think trying to put a figure on it is barking up the wrong tree a little bit. What about recessive grey???? That COULD be still around so there is another recessive variety. Slates, saddlebacks, darkwings, what about crests....? Are they are recessive varieity??? See what I'm getting at?

okay I'll try and make it clearer, sorry. So take a normal green cock bird for example. So on that allelic series appears also blue and yellowface so because only 2 genes can be present at one allele then it could be either split for YF OR split for blue but not both. Also it could be split for greywing OR split for clearwing OR split for Dilute but not all 3 at the same time. As blackeyed self is technically a cinnamon dilute you have to remember that this too is on that same allelic series. It could also be split for recessive pied as this is a different allele. It could also be split for fallow as this is a different allele. The same with Sex linked recessive varities. Clearbody and Ino (or lacewing) appear on the same allele so a cock bird can be split for clearbody OR split for ino but not both. But it can be also split for cinnamon as this is a different allele. It can be split for opaline as this is a different allele. (A hen can't be split for any sex linked trait but can be split for any normal recessive trait). It can also be split for any other recessive variety or sex link recessive varieity that appears on a different allele say blackface, darkwing, slates, saddlebacks etc. You could work it out on a bird by bird basis but you can't put a firm figure on it as it will depend on what the bird actually is as to what it can be split for.

Any trait an animal displays is basically determined by mixes of 2 genes attaching to certain alleles so in an allelic series such as greywing, clearwing, dilute a bird can only have 2 of the 3 genes attach so it cannot be split for both clearwing AND dilute. As for the green, yellowface & blue series and bird cannot be split for blue AND yellowface at the same time. BUT if the genes appear on different alleles then any number of varieties can be present so for example a cock bird could ne normal green split for blue, split for cinnamon, split for opaline, split for recessive pied etc etc. From the latest genetic references, yellow face is recessive to green but dominant to blue on the same allelic series so a green bird can be split for yellowface (not masked but split for), a yellowface can be split for blue or it can be double factor yellow face (not split for blue). Thats the whole emerging discussion about the yellowface gene removing yellow from green not adding yellow to blue (in an attempt to clarify that greens don't mask yellow face coz you can't add more yellow to an already yellow bird).

Babies babies babies! Some pics of a few babies just starting to fledge. A very exciting Normal Cobalt from a grey opaline spangle cock x normal grey hen. A nice surprise from 2 grey birds (yay) also hoping for a corker as father is from a Nats winner and has bred some beauties before and mother is a relative. He already has good size about him and good looking amount of feather judging by the pins. A nice sized white lacewing chick from the old white lacewing boy - they have chicks spread throughout lots of different nests and have laid again with good fertility. You can tell it's lacewing v's ino by the 2 cinnamon tail feathers appearing as the chick fledges. An OMG (sized) blackeyed self, looking to have great colour and it's huge. From the one blackeyed self pair that I ended up putting down. The hen is just amazing for this variety and passes on her size and quality. Does not look like it will be too suffused either. A mottley bunch. All in the same nest as the cobalt chick. The foster parents had an infertile round so thay may as well be of some use and raise this lot. One olive clearwing on the far left with horror markings - from a very strongly marked violet outcross (I'm hoping he makes up for it with size!). A beautifully coloured lacewing from the parents of my 3rd place nats boy (on the right) and an cinnamon olive spangle (top).

Hehehe no i think actually RIP first said that it was a clearwing so I can't claim the glory on that but the fact that i was away with work meant that I didn't get a chance to get in first He looks great! See you on Sunday then.

She does look like a lacewing but if she does not have red eyes then she is not. The lilac cheek patch and cinnamon spots and markings (even if they are poor) does indicate lacewing. Pink feet too (indicating cinnamon). Take her into the sunlight and have a good look at her eye colour compared to a normal blackeyed variety.

My guess would be that if they don't appear on the same allele (like greywing, clearwing, dilute or green, yellowface, blue) then a bird can be split for any number of recessive varieties.

Looks pretty darn clearwing to me. Not all of my clearwings have really violet cheek patches and some are almost like spangle patches with a bit of silver/white through them. Never been picked up for it though so I'm assuming it's not a problem?........ I would definitely pitch for clearwing cock bird and a fairly nice one at that. Let him moult out and then see what the cheek patch and markings do. My guess is that he will be slightly marked but a nice example of a clearwing. He's go a brilliantly clear tail!!!

Just as a matter of interest, I have a hen (maiden this year) who layed a whole nest full of eggs but did not sit on them until about the 7th egg and initially I did not notice this. I initially thought her nest was infertile as the eggs did not develop as expected. Usually by the 3-4 egg you can see development in the first or second if they are fertile. Hers all started developing together and hatching around the same time. It was as they all started to develop together that I realized that she did not sit until quite a few eggs had been layed. It's normal for the hen to not sit on the first but to wait until the second is layed before incubating - it's not so normal that they wait until the 7th egg!!!

They may well be clearwing markings. Need a better picture!

Hi Dean I found that kitty litter dried out the nest too much and was too hard on the eggs. DIS could be a real indication that the egg membrane has dried out too much and is difficult for the chicks to penetrate. I use pine shavings in the nest unless the nest gets sweaty with large almost fully grown chicks THEN I will put a solid layer of kitty litter in to absorb the moisture and place a layer of pine shavings on top for comfort and warmth.

Hi Bluefrog and welcome. In colony breeding ANY male can mate with and fetilize the eggs of ANY female. Parentage is never guaranteed in this breeding system. Also hens don't necessarily mate before laying eggs so they can also lay infertile eggs. Budgie eggs that have been continuously incubated take 18 days to hatch (give or take). Most hens will not sit on the first egg until she has laid the second and then usually she will be sitting on them almost continuously until they hatch and then for some time afterwards as the babies need to be brooded underneath the hen until they fledge (feather up).

Thanks Splat. Sorry to hear about your breeding season - it's a bugger when the best laid plans don't turn out (no pun intended there).

Happy about the lacewings but a bit disappointed that my normal/normal breeding takes a step backwards....... I am hoping that raising a clutch will stir them into action for the second round. But overall yes, happy!

Well at the end of last week our babies started to hatch. After an initial quik start of egg laying it was evident that my big blue x grey green hen's entire nest of eggs were infertile so they got swapped out with a clutch of fertile eggs from an old white lacewing cock and his mate who surprisingly produced a whole nest of fertile eggs. Another unexpected nest from 2x '08 birds both of which bred for me late last season were also infertile so their eggs also got swapped out for the same pairing that produced my 2009 3rd Place Nats Lacewing boy. So here are some of the babies. Yellow Lacewing x Yellow Lacewing - this pairing is the one that produced the 3rd Place nats boy, they are being raised by a pair of normals who were SUPPOSED to be breeding more of my normal/normal line. Note the red eye of a lacewing looks the same as an ino (in effect they are a cinnamon ino after all). This is the older white lacewing boy that I mentioned above. He did not produce anything for me last year and it was this year or bust. Surprisingly he & his girlfriend produced a whole nest of fertile eggs (except the first). His eggs are now under another pair and they will hopefully start another round of eggs soon. Again note the red eyes of the baby. I had picked out 3 blackeyed self pairings but in the end only put down one pair as I can decide if I will continue with this variety or not. They have one chickie. Note the plum eye of the cinnamon as blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes. Also have clearwings starting to hatch out. Again note the difference between the red, plum & black eyes.

Apparently ANBC has just sent to state zone secs an info pack for judges and members on Brownwings written by Don Burke (including a DVD filmed by Mario Capaso). If and when I come across it I'll post some more info. Other people might like to keep an eye out for it.

If ALL the babies were yellow faced then the violet that you have is most likely a double factor yellow face. As the yellowface gene removes yellow pigment but incompletely in the double factor form (in YF2) the birds appear as normal blues with no yellow pigment. The double factor removes MORE yellow than the single factor does. The green was split for blue and the yellow face was a double factor yellow face. Described genetically as Gb x YfYf then when combined you get the outcomes of: 50% GYf (Green split Yf) 50% Yfb (single factor Yf (or I guess you could correctly say split for blue considering the genetics of it)).

Oh that's sad Splat! Still I'm sure the babies might prefer to stay home today rather than have to go to a show and no doubt that violet will grow up to be a stunner and do his share of winning anyway!

As I posted 2x before: "A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin Quoted directly: The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective. Can you tell me which book that is GB. I would love to read it for comparison. I find the book I've quoted an extremely credible reference based on science rather than heresay which is so common in the budgie fraternity. Sure science and ideas can be wrong but in this case after reading carefully the sections on Perblues and how the gene also reacts in other parrot forms I tend to agree with the quote. I have been able to source a DF yf so will see for myself (so long as all the breedings work out okay) if you can get a YF green (which would mean you should be able to breed yf AND blues from the same pairing). I still believe that you can get greens/yf but not YF Greens.

Ummmm. Well I was thinking more along the lines that YF Greens do exist but are very hard to identify so can be overlooked until a 'surprise' pops up. NO as I posted before according to this reference green does not "mask" or hide yf. YF is Recessive to green but dominant to blue - they all occur on the same allele (like greywing, clearwing and dilute). If YF occurred on a different allele then green could mask or hide it but yf would still behave as a dominant gene. As green, yf and blue occur on the same allele and yf is not co-dominant (see in the copy below) it cannot be "hidden" as it were by the green. "A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin Quoted directly: The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

Well according to the genetics of it with YF being recessive to green but dominant to blue then if you bred one of the birds you are talking about to a green you would get a green split yellowface. THEN if you bred THAT green/yf to a blue the outcome should be 50% green/blue & 50% Yf (single factor).

Sea green body would indicate that they actually very strongly pigmented Golden Faces (or Aussie YF if you like) so they are in fact not actually greens. I know the birds you mean having seen them on the bench. This is what Kaz was talking about with her quote about breeding yf & blues in the same clutch from greens - the green has in fact been misdiagnosed and is actually a heavily pigmented aussi yf.