nubbly5

Go tell that person to pull their head in! That 2nd hen is as good as any I bred this year and I would be very happy to have her! Chick 1 will be very handy too! And okay maybe chick 3 I would not be too fussed about but don't write it off either! Not all chicks in every clutch is going to be top quality. Their size for babies just left the nest if very good (I know the size of the dad and he is not tiny either) and they will make terrific stock hens. Notice at no point did I say "They look cute!" (my standard reply when I think the bird is a **** example of a show bird - just given myself away here..... ooops), I said "I would be very happy with chick number 2 in particular, definitely not unhappy with chick number 1 and keep number 3 in case she develops more. What does this person expect you to breed in your first real attempts at show breeding lacewings anyway? A Nationals winner? Are they the same person who convinced you to get rid of some of your other chicks early too? Hmmm maybe not the advice I'd be listening to.

Lace hens don't ever seem to have the same feather or power as the cocks so don't try and look at them against cock birds. I think all 3 will be useful birds but 2 would be my pick and 1 would be next pick with 3 being last. But like I said I would have been extatic to have bred a hen lw like chick 3 in the first few years of breeding! Nice job!

Nubbly has much like. I REALLY like chick #2 - is that the one you preferred initially GB? She has nice feather and strength to match it. Maybe just a bit lacking in backskull and could be a bit longer...? Hard to tell though. My least favorite is chick 3. The big round eyes tells me she does not have the feather of her sister. But these guys can really change so hang in there and watch while they moult and develop. And the markings on all 3 of them are great. I would be extatic if I had bred chicks like this in my first few years of breeding exhibition budgies! They will definitely be good show prospects and should complete well on the bench.

Ooooooh! Exciting!!!!!!!!

oooooooh a possible slate! RIP the I agree that Daddy looks to be very similar in colour but in the close up photo the mottled chest feathers sort of indicated there might be dark factor there....... Never thought of slate as we don't see it here supposedly....... Jodie I hope the little chickie pulls through!

Great info Finnie! And yes ANYTHING can be a problem. Years ago when I was just using natural perching (cut natural branches) I found out very quickly that I needed to trim ANY smaller branch off. I lost a budgie after it got it's leg ring stuck over one of the smaller branches. It obviously got frightened and tried to fly, only twisting itself around it's stuck leg. When I got to it, it's leg was just a pulverised mess! A gruesome and horrible way to learn a lesson.

Mmmm yes well Daddy does look like a dark green when compared to Mommy. What do you say RIP?

I use vetafarms Breeding Aid, soak the seed in overnight. It provides Vit D as well as some other nutrients. I bought Vetafarms Soluvite D Breeder but having read some more information on the possible toxicity levels of Vitamin D if you get it wrong, I have refrained from giving this to my breeding birds but will occassionally run it through the flights. I do use Calcivet 1 day per week as growing chicks and laying hens have a huge requirement for extra calcium at that point.

Kaz, I have occassionally seen this in some of my young birds, very rarely in an older bird. The explanation given to me by several more experienced breeders (I asked everyone when i first saw it) was that it was caused by an infection affecting the liver - usually e.coli in younger birds. The liver swells and puts pressure on the nerves running nearby (which happens to be the leg nerves primarily) causing paralysis in either one or both feet and sometimes even the whole leg depending on the severity of the infection (or swelling of the liver). My first line of action with these birds is as with any infection - broad specturm antibiotic (as I am unsure exactly what I bacteria I need to treat for so I hit a wide as I can) and heat. All of the young birds I have had to treat in this manner have recovered well. I can't remember the outcome of the couple of adult birds I've seen with it - it's a while ago now. I probably see a couple of these each breeding season and usually if I'm a bit tardy on the kindy cage hygene. Obviously I have NOT gone to the vet to find out if the theory is correct to start with or if so what bacteria I might be dealing with. Also I imagine if the liver swelling is caused by something other than an infection you may well lose the bird anyway.

Sorry Jodie, we are trying to help! Can you get a picture of the 2 parents in the same shot. The baby IS a dark green (or at a pinch a light green violet). So given the supposed impossibility of this outcome, I'd like to see if we have missed seeing something in the adults. OR it is possible that this is an mutation - extremely unlikely but still possible. Just noted something else - when I looked at the rec pied photo I noted that it looked to be dark green also. You said that they are siblings - are they also full siblings to the dark green chick?

Well I just spoke at length with Mr Spangle himself - Gary Armstrong and he said "go hang the standard" and that DF Spangles do indeed have plum eyes at hatching that darken as they mature........... so I HAVE been on the wrong track for the last 10 yrs......... oh well

I think I do get it. Directional feather means going in all directions? Before, I thought it meant going out in a sideways direction, like my attempt at line drawing: So, in other words, this baby's got it, right? Yep that's it! Even going down before going horizontally!

Well Jodie - then it's a bit of a mystery I reckon! The parents both appear to be light green (MAYBE one is actually a dark green?!) and neither look to have violet. The only real options that I can see is that the chick is either dark green or violet light green. Either of those options given that both parents seem to be normal light greens, without any violet, are impossible. So either it's one of those mysterious happenings or something else is going on. Another dumb question...... how long between taking the pair out of the general flight to when the hen laid? Could you take a picture of both parents together? It could be that the different light of the photo's above is hiding the fact that one of them is in fact dark green.

yep okay! But that could be a pair of overalls! Janice is a very lovely lady!

Cool. For a moment there I thought I had been on the wrong track for the last 10 yrs.

Really? DF spangles hatched with plum eyes? As adults they have BLACK eyes - I mean BLACK and not the faintly plum eye (described as "dark" in the standard) of a cinnamon. We are not getting confused with the fact that a huge amount of DF spangles these days are bred from cinnamons are we? Even Terry Martin gives the DF Spangle an alternative name of BLACK-eyed clear. AND makes the distinction between that and a Dark-eyed clear which is born with plum eyes.

Hmmm it does look like both parents are light green.......... And it looks like neither parents carry violet. Are you breeding in a colony situation? I ask this only to find out if there is any chance another cock could have mated with the hen. Oh and I got it a bit wrong - IF these parents are indeed the parents of this chick - there is a 25% chance of it carrying NO rec pied, 50% chance of it being /rec pied. Sorry about the / thing. I just assume that people know what it means - my bad. AND There is only one situation I can remember that you will have EVER seen me in a dress, Kaz! It's a VERY rare thing.

Well I don't think it's as simple at that! Having working in one of WA's feedmills for a reasonable time some years ago I think I have a little insight into pelleted feeds! Most pellet feeds contain mainly grain as their prime ingredients with some extras such as amino acids and minerals made to mimic what scientific research of many years has laid out as the nutrient requirements for that species of animal. As an animal nutritionist you can purchase books specifically titles "The Nutrient Requirements of ........" (Insert whatever animal you want here). Having worked with the raw ingredients (I worked at the lab at the mill) I can tell you there is nothing terribly scary added - maybe the most unusual you might see is fish meal or tallow. Testing is carried out on ALL raw ingredients to make sure that they meet specs for that ingredient and that they are have no toxins. The ingredients are then basically ground up, mixed together and pushed through a pellet mill (a big plate with holes in it) with heat to make pellets. Pellet batches are sampled at the other end and batch run samples are kept for a couple of years to ensure that IF something goes wrong then a sample is still available for testing. The DRAWBACKS for pellet diets from the experience that I have had with them both at the mill AND working with many different production animals since is as follows: If animals are not familiar with them, it takes some time and training for them to recognise the pellets as food. Pellets, if manufactured poorly, can be dusty leading to health problems (ruminants especially) and wastage. Ingredients can change, even though the nutrient specification stays the same. Some sensitive animals (dairy cattle to name one) notice the change and temporarily go off feed - very bad for a high production dairy cow! This is because a computer program called a "least cost ration" program is commonly what is used to formulate a diet. So say if a mill has purchased a protien source that is cheaper (say lupins as opposed to soya meal), so long as both ingredients are acceptable for that animal, the program will substitute one for the other based on cost per % protien. The ADVANTAGES are that generally pelleted feeds ARE a better representation of the requirements for that animal than what we can "guess at" as being appropriate for the animal. And if you are feeding a mix of grains plus random other things based on the fact that someone told you they are good, you ARE GUESSING. The heat used to process pelleted food (needed to bind and make the pellets themselves) generally improves the digestability of grains, compared to if they were fed in the natural form. BUT not all feedmills make good pellet feeds either. One mill who shall remain un-named was producing a "backyard layer pellet" this mill assumed that it could save money (or make more money I should say) by producing a lower spec pellet based on the assumption that people would feed table scraps to their chooks. This however was poorly outlined on the label and many people I knwo compainted of chooks not laying well whilst being fed it. So the lower spec pellets could not on their own support the chooks egg production. AND free choice diets (where the animal chooses what to eat based on the ASSUMPTION that the animal knows best) have been proven in many different species to not work all that well. Trials done with dairy cattle disproved this for that species, showing that the cows liked to eat some essential nutrients but ignored others even when they were deficient in those nutrients. So a totally free choice diet for them is unsuitable. Humans are another example, we favour sugary foods above foods that may contain essential vitamins and minerals even when we are deficient in those nutrients. Actually the ingredients listed on the parrot pellet diets look pretty damn good to me! Maybe save the aritificial colours (I never understood artificial colours in dog food either except to attract our own little brains to the stuff - but maybe that's the whole point of that one) but everything else looks pretty good. Lots of amino acids and good grain ingredients. AND Personally I HATE an unbalanced and emotively based arguement. CHEMICALS, well yes SALT is a CHEMICAL - don't let some bimbo pannick you out of rational thought. Not all CHEMICALS are bad and not all NATURAL ingredients are good either - ARSENIC is NATURAL!

My Greywing that ran 2nd at the Nationals had a nest mate brother who was superior to himself. I was in a hurry one morning and left a bucket of water in the birdroom. We all know what happens next.... the young bird got out of the breeding cage, actually rarely happens to me, and drowned in the bucket. Its always the best one...... :laughter: THAT makes me feel so much better about some of the stupid sh*t I've done in the past to lose some good birds!

Well that's a little different then. If you do care about increasing size and features towards showing birds then outcrossing with strong normals (Normal Dark Greens are favoured to improve the buttercup yellow colouring sought after in lutes) to obtain split cocks and improved hens is a must. Breeding lute to lute will not necessarily cause any undue issues with chicks per say and to be brutally honest unless you are serious about showing and ready to do it then there really is no reason to not put the lutes together. In fact smaller pet shop birds generally live longer and are healthier, making them much better pets, due to the fact that they do not have to support the growth of excess feather that show birds produce. IF you DO get into showing birds then working on improving size would best be done with the purchase of a strong outcross. But if the Albie is a bigger bird then you could definitely kill 2 birds with one stone by pairing her to a Lutie cock. You will still get all ino's as I mentioned above, hopefully you will also get some improvement in size imparted from the hen AND you might also get 50% Albies IF the cock bird is split to blue. If you are trying to breed for showing then keeping the better chicks to breed from later is essential anyway. Hope that makes sense!

Thanks all! Holy Cr*p is a real corker and I'm really proud of him.

Interesting when people just go on refuting what has already been scientifically proven - but then I suppose there are still SOME people who think the world is indeed flat. In the few years that I've been breeding lacewings I have bred one hen albino from a lacewing to normal pairing and GB in one of her first few lacewing to split pairings has bred a lutino so a good example of crossover again (well reverse crossover in this case). Thanks for the article! My favourite genetics book Dr Terry Martins - Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots, also has a neat section on crossover too.

Those deep buttercup yellow LACEWINGS :rofl:

Just gotta have a little brag after attending the RBC Annual Show. Those of you who have followed my breeding journal over our last breeding season will know Holy Cr*p and his brother Holy Sh*t. Named in this manner as this is what I said when I saw them feathering up in the nest box...... well today Holy Cr*p (the little star) went BIS at the RBC Annual Show - okay is wasn't the biggest show in the world but there was another strong open breeder present so he did have some competition. In fact I was unsure that he really should have won until I saw him strutt his stuff and really show himself off and then I felt his place at the top was very justified so I am one very happy birdie mum. I couldn't get a terrific shot of him today due to the crappy lighting and him not really showing off, but here he is.

If you don't show breed the quickest way to get more lutino's is to breed lutino to lutino. The only reason you breed splits or from splits is to increase the size and quality of the lutino's that you start off with. If it's just a pet bird, who care about the size or feather just breed lute to lute to get 100% lutes. You can also pair the Albino to the Lutes and get lutes and maybe albies (if the lute is split for blue). You can also breed lutes from split to lute or split to normal but the proprtions are lower so just go for broke with the lute to lute. Lacewings are the result of cinnamon crossing over from the gene of one bird and attaching to the gene of the ino bird or visa versa. This crossover happens in only a very few percentage of pairings. Once the gene has crossed over the cinnamon and the ino travel together and behave as a single gene except for in a very small percentage of pairings when the genes can re-crossover resulting in the cinnamon and ino gene splitting and either a cinnamon or an ino popping out where they really shouldn't. It's gonna take you an awefully long time to get yourself a lacewing if you are going to try and breed one in this manner (or you might luck it in early) the rate of crossover is estinated at 3% of all chicks bred from cinnamon & ino results in a crossover. So for every chick it has a 3% chance of being a lacewing. Just go and buy a lacewing to breed with - much simpler.