Dean_NZ

You beat me to the question jimmy Im afraid after reading pete's article so many times in order to write these posts that now i can only think along the lines of his writing haha. In saying that, i would probably label generic blues birds differently than he has. As always, its difficult with some photos to judge the vibrancy and/or spillage of the yellow.

Hi Jen144. It's really hard to judge on some photos, as i well know how flash, no flash, and ambient lighting all affect the appearance of colour on a bird. Zoom, resolution and stability also make it difficult. However, going from what i can see i would say... This bird below is a YF2 (By2B1) sky blue male This photo is difficult to judge, as my first impression of this budgie would be that it is a green series recessive pied. Failing that, it could possibly be a YF2 (By2B1) recessive pied blue. Again with this bird below, the clarity and lighting of the picture makes it difficult, but i would have to say this is some sort of goldenface composite. Given that you can have double factor golden face with the yellow presenting in the mask and spreading (mainly) to the chest, you could expect some spillage beyond that in some birds. So this 'could' be a double factor golden face. It could also be a composite form of golden face crossed with yf2, which is better explained by pete burgman as thus:

I have seen goldenfaces where the colour is in the face (BgB2) and goldenfaces where the colour runs into the body (BgB1) at the pet store and at show breeders aviaries. These are VERY apparent when paired next to normal yellowfaces, huge colour difference in the yellow production. We also have YF1 (i even have 2 YF1 birds or B1B2 alleles). I have a YF2 cock (seafoam green, ie ByfB1 as pete burgman would say) who produced three YF2 chicks, and i have a YF2 dom pied grey hen that is hopefully about to lay. Curiously, she is paired to the YF1, so i will be closely observing the chicks YF inheritance (fingers crossed they lay that is).

okay so i have re-read pete's article and i will try and visually explain his thinking. Photo's courtesy of LittleGreenDarcyAviary. All quotes are of pete burgmans article. Therefore b1 allele and one b2 allele is the typical yellowface mutant 1: Once more: Then there is the double factor golden face bgbg which produces pigment beyond the mask area alone, typically concentratedd in the chest area. (Look under the beard, the chest is green): or here: There are also two types of single factor goldenfaces - bgb1 where the colour runs down the body: - and bgb2.where the colour is restricted to the head, and a few other areas such as tail or flight feathers: Yellowface mutant 2 is by2 and appears as seafoam green when carried as by2b1: Double factor yellowface by2by2 produces a somewhat brighter yellow, which spreads down to the chest, but not over the whole body as with by2b1. Everything composite you can get with a bg (goldenface), you can get with a yellowface mutant two (by2) - the only difference as mentioned before is that the yellow is less vibrant. All types of yellow faces express variance. ie some will be brighter than others of the same type, others paler. Some will have lots of spillage, others little to none. This is the case with any mutation - in that it expresses itself slightly differently with almost every bird. I hope this provides some understanding, and perhaps even further discussion Feel free to disagree or correct me if you believe i misunderstood or you feel otherwise

Correct me if im wrong, but there are no DF YF1's. Pete burgmans article talks about a number of what he refers to as blue mutant or 'parblue' varieties, in that there are now in existance a number of 'faulty' and 'semi faulty' yellow pigment genes. If i recall, he refers to blue mutant genes B1 and B2. B1 is faulty, and a bird with B1B1 genes will be a white faced blue. As will a B2B2 bird. However, a yellowface type 1 occurs when a bird has B1 and B2, as singly they fail to produce a workable yellow pigment producing enzyme, but together they managa to partially compensate eachother and produce a weak 'lemon yellow' colour. If i did remember that bit right, and pete burgman is also right, that would mean 2 type one yellowfaces (B1B2) would produce 25% b1b1 chicks (white faced blue), 25% b2b2 chicks (same again) and 50 % b1b2 chicks (typical yf1's). At any rate, dont quote me on that lol. I have had to re-read pete's article a number of times just to learn it slowly. **Post note** here is the link: Pete Burgman on yellowface genetics

okay here is where we are currently at. Egg #1 is fertile, and has a little embryo moving around. I removed eggs #2,3 & 4 as they were definitely infertile. Egg #5 is or was fertile. I say was, because it definitely was, but when i shone the torch in the nest today, i saw a ring of blood that goes right around the middle of the egg. If i recall correctly, this means something has gone wrong with the embryo and it is now dead. Correct?? If so i will want to throw this as soon as i get confirmation, as the hen has started laying to replace the eggs i tossed. She laid an 8th egg today, and it is too early for me to tell if egg #6 and 7 are fertile. I just shine the torch over each egg while mum is out feeding, as i am familiar with the veining that comes with fertile eggs after a few days and don't need to handle them. Is it quite common to have egg #1 fertile, a few infertile, then a few more fertile? I will certainly be happy if even one chick hatches and survives, i am just hoping to reduce wastage by clearing infertile eggs (of course i would love more fertile ones to be laid if possible and if it doesn't strain the mother too much - she is a great hen). Thanks again for your assistance. By the way, does anyone have a link to videos demonstrating egg candling? I had a link but it no longer works, and its a pain because i wanted to double check the video where they show the blood ring

My hen laid 6 fertile eggs for her first round. All were two days apart except for the 4th egg, which was laid 3 days after the last one. Sometimes there are pauses in between laying which are perfectly natural. Some first time layers might lay 3-4 days apart and only lay 3 eggs. If the hen shows signs of distress eg panting, fluffing feathers, tail pumping or sitting on the floor of the cage, then she is likely egg bound or having other egg laying problems.

Couple of ideas for you , The Hen has held fertile sprem from the previous matings for the first egg to be fertile, The young chicks that are out are interupting the mating parents , The cock bird is worn out from feeding and not in condition to produce fertile sperm, Pluck the cock birds feathers from the vent area so you have a more successful chance of mating, you can also do the hen. Move the young out if they are feeding by themselves to a nappy cage so the parents can get back down to business. My apologies, i should further clarify. *The young chicks are in a nursery cage, away from the parents. At the time of laying, only the last chick remained with the parents and was removed to the nursery before the second egg was laid. *The hen started sitting fully after egg 2 was laid. *Both cock and hen have had feathers plucked about 3 days before the first egg was laid as i expected a second round soon. Having read your post however, i wonder if the idea about the cock bird being tired or out of condition is a possibility. Sounds plausible at least. Either he was just coming out of condition or into it at the time of laying and his sperm count was low. Or perhaps he has no sperm currently, and the hen did somehow retain sperm from the last successful mating of round one. Tricky indeed. I may just remove the eggs that are clear, given that beyond all reasoning some should have shown veins by now (eggs, 2 and 3, possibly 4). Any other ideas or suggestions? Its a shame i have no other pairs with eggs to foster under this great hen, or to foster her fertile egg to. Such is the way with breeding budgies i suppose! Oh, one further question. I have two males that are my best cocks, yet they spend all their time preening and feeding each other (ie they appear homosexual for all intents and purposes, having never shown interest in any hens). Would anyone advise putting one of these cocks with the hen (after removing the eggs if it comes to that) and trying for a 3rd and final round of eggs? It's hard to get things right with so few budgies, given they are sometimes fickle :thumbs_down: Thanks for your help!

Hi all, the clutch of five from my first ever breeding attempt have all happily fledged and are eating superbly. The hen started laying her second round about 2 days before the last chick started leaving the nest. She has currently laid 6 eggs, and is due to lay a 7th tomorrow (if there is to be one). The interesting thing is that with the exception of the 5th and 6th egg which are too early to tell, of the first 4 eggs, only the FIRST is fertile. I cant figure out why. I have seen the birds mating quite frequently. Her first round of 6 eggs were all fertile and all hatched, the 6th dying from asphyxiation (siblings too large). If all eggs were clear that might make sense, but it is apparent she was successfully mated as the first egg is fertile. Why not any more? As i said, eggs 5 & 6 are too early to tell, but i have a suspicion they too are clear. Thoughts??

What sort of feed is it getting? Apologies for not following your breeding journal, which may tell me what im about to ask but if they are being parent raised, what soft food and veges/protein are you giving the parents (who in turn give it to the chicks?). If they are getting adequate soft food, perhaps the chick is not receiving enough food to grow adequately. Alternately, if the chick is being hand raised, it could be a problem with the strength of formula you are using (either the brand or the water/powder ratio). At 4 weeks old the chick should be able to eat seed or soft food itself, try encouraging it to eat more proteins. For protein i use cooked brown rice fed with lentils (soup mix), as neither rice nor lentils are a complete protein alone, but together are complimentary. Also, boiled egg mashed up with the shell fed FRESH is a great source of fats and complete proteins for growing babies that are in need of that little extra. I would not feed egg very often though. And as a rule, i always offer sprouted seeds to the parents, which they LOVE. The babies in the nursery go nuts over it now too

Just an update on the hen. After passing what i assume was the yoke (the day after passing the egg shell/egg white), the hen immediately looked more relaxed and the next day had minimal tail pumping (little if any above normal). She is still in a seperate cage away from the aviary, and i am considering putting her back in the aviary in the next couple of days. Either way, she seems to have recovered and was fortunate to not have laid (or attempted to lay) any more eggs.

I have seperated the cock bird, placing him back in the aviary. I am trying to resolve a heating issue with my hospital cage (seems to have malfunctioned at the worst possible time) as i had decided to remove her and try and get her out of egg laying mode. I have done all that i can for now, blocked off the nest box, removed the male, given oral calcium + vitamin d3. She passed the egg yolk this morning that i assume should have been part of the white that was passed yesterday. She seems to be a lot more settled but i am almost certain she will try and lay at least one more egg before i manage to switch her off. Im just hoping she passes the next egg okay and that is the last of it. Will keep an eye on her Fingers crossed!

Oh yeah, the bedding. Well first i was going to use nothing. Then i considered pine shivings, which are the norm generally speaking. However, one of the larger breeders i visited had problems with dry eggs / eggs not hatching and after she started using pete moss, hasnt had any problems. It also is really good for absorbing moisture and droppings, helping to form dry matter quite quickly keeping the chicks feet and feathers clean. It's really cheap and works fine for me. When i introduce the nest box and concave, there is no pete moss. Only after all of the chicks have hatched do i take out the concave and place an amount of pete moss inside. Im not totally set on it, but it is what i will use this breeding season. Next season i will try pine shavings and compare.

Yea it has D3 to aid calcium absorption, plus magnesium (in whatever dose is necessary) and she gets sunlight. If anything i would agree that she has somehow got a lack of calcium. Im not sure how overdosing would cause soft eggs, but as i said elsewhere - im all ears when it comes to being corrected. So long as i learn sooner rather than later. I'd rather feel bad or stupid then feel regret because a bird was ill or died. Thanks for your comments and assistance!

I know the breeder who i purchased her from, her feeding regime and the availability of mineral and calcium blocks. I have had her myself for near about 2 months, and she has had cuttlefish, liquid calcium supplements and frequent broccoli and carrot. I had been adding an egg powder purchased from the pet shop that is made from egg shells and dried / powdered egg. I also add oyster shell grit to their seed and once a month to their soft food.I can't imagine where or when i failed to provide enough sources of calcium. Although i admit i hadnt tried adding dried and crushed egg shells to her food. As far as age goes, i would have to check with her breeder, but im pretty sure she is about 14 months old, this is her first time breeding. I hope i haven't failed in any way, but as hard as it is i am willing to take responsibility and correct and failings on my part.NOTE: I have given her an oral dose following recommendations on the packet of 0.2ml per 100gm of weight. I gave her 0.05ml directly, and then re-dosed her water to make sure it was at the appropriate levels. Should i still try and add crushed egg shell to her soft food? Or is it possible to overdose her?

Oh yes, forgot to mention that. Father is a YF2 skyblue opaline split for ino. Mother is an opaline grey (no dark factor) split blue.

Aaah thats crazy!! It surely cant be lack of calcium?? She has cuttlefish and added calcium supplement in the water??? Should i increase the water supplement of calcium?? Im shocked I can't believe its a soft formed egg. I suppose at least that gives me something to go on? She also gets and eats carrot and broccoli daily with her soft food.. I don't understand why she doesn't have enough calcium

I wasnt a member of this board during the laying/hatching stage of this clutch, but it is still exciting for me as it is my first attempt at breeding. Here is the current stage of the babies: Baby #1 - YF2 Opaline sky blue Baby #2 - YF2 Opaline grey Baby #3 - YF2 Opaline sky blue Baby #4 - Opaline sky blue Baby #5 - Opaline Grey Hope you enjoyed Will post more later

Today Mrs pumping tail the green hen i have been watching closely (hoping she will lay, worrying she is ill) decided to confuse me even further. First she finally started dropping the big poops i associate with being about to lay. All good and fine. I noticed this while i was dishing out the soft food for the evening. I turned away to take care of more food, and hurd another 'ploppy' noise almost straight after she dropped the big poop. I checked the cage and saw the strangest... poop.. monster... thing... i have seen yet. It is liquid inside a semi solid almost plastic feeling encasement. It is clear with slight opaqueness and i have NO clue what it is or what it means. The only thing that comes to mind is some sort of worms, a 'pre-egg laying' deposit of some sort, or perhaps a horribly formed egg 'thing'. Any ideas??? I am hoping to find an answer that makes sense otherwise im going to have to take her (and 'it') to the vet!! p.s - Yes i have checked online for all the information on poop / worms / intestinal / egg laying problems i could find. I am still looking but thought i would post at the same time and attack the problem from two sides. Normal big poop (has slightly green tinge, is that normal?): Unusual thing:

I will go listen to her, and while im at it i will try and take a video to show you the tail pumping. To me it is quite the pump. I have noticed some birds pump a little when sleeping or whatever, but this is far more exaggerated. Update soon.

Just went for a trip down to napier for a few days with my wife. Dad was able to watch and feed the budgies while i went (boy did the babies feather up in a hurry while i was gone!!!). Anyway, Mrs Green pumpy tail is still pumpin and no egg. She does not appear distressed or fluffed up, but i had seriously expected an egg by now. Perhaps its 'still' coming, but just in case i inspected her today, vent looks okay to me, gently felt aroundthe vent but felt nothing solid or firm. Perhaps didnt push deep enough but i was being gentle. Any thoughts??

Im not trying to put down breeders who aren't as dedicated or 'serious' as i am. I do not believe that anyone could just sit idly by while their budgies fight or die breeding and say "aren't they just great little birds". Or "the parents randomly died, but here are the chicks, could be diseased, could be anything, cheers! hope they find a great home!". There are basics of animal keeping that when not kept, just get me fired up. And i am well aware of budgie mills, but knowing there is worse out there doesn't mean i should smile and nod at the 'sort of but not quite as bad' situations. P.S I don't have a problem with colony breeding, just with the way the lady spoke about fighting, dying or sick/struggling birds.

Since i was going to stop in at work and the pet shop is 5 mins down the road, i decided to pop in. These days most everybody has chicks fledging, so there are a lot of budgies coming in and i love keeping an eye out for that special violet or other bird. I went in today and saw three (sky blue spangle x2, sky blue spangle opaline x1) just fledged chicks being brought in by a 'breeder'. I pretended to be viewing some of the larger parrots while i listened in to the 'breeder' talk with the pet store bird person who was worming the young chicks before placing them in stock cages. The 'breeder' was saying "The parents just stopped feeding them one day, then the youngest chick died and then the parents died. I wonder what it was. Maybe it was the change in food or something with the water. Its so strange that the parents did that, but these chicks are hardy so they survived just fine. These birds are generally very tough, they breed all through winter for me and it gets cold where i am!! They fight a bit, but dont usually do too much harm. Such wonderful birds!!" I was appalled. By the sounds of it she is running a 'hit and miss' colony breeding programme. I was quietly steaming away!!! I wanted to say something but i didnt know what to say without getting mad at her and getting thrown out of the store!! Such a shame

I had the same experience with my first clutch!!! I love that you were just as excited as me - brings back those wonderful memories!!!

I prepared a brooder and hand rearing food / supplies just for that purpose thinking of taking the oldest 2 or three and relieving the parents of a bit of strain so they would be fitter for round 2. However, i dont really think i have the time in the day to do it now and the parents are doing fab. I would do it if i needed to, and im not saying you shouldnt (because i almost did ) but I tend to think the parents are almost always a better option :fear. Unless you want a super tame chick!