Dean_NZ

I have never found the dilute alleles to be a headache at all. I found them to be a very interesting set of alleles worthy of the time I spend on them. So worthy in fact I am gonna do it all again. I agree that with time and records they are great. I am interested in breeding dilutes and clearwings at some point. However from where i stand, being unable to find any breeders of these birds in NZ, or any budgies of the 3 dilute varieties with a clear breeding history it is a nightmare. For me to have any luck breeding rainbows, i need some DF clearwings, but so far all i have found are questionable greywings and i cant spend generations breeding them to find out what there genetics are. So yes, from my end a nightmare. But if i were to one day get some good dilutes and clearwings, then its not a problem

What makes you think the first chick is spangle? Second looks like it may be, third looks DF, but first im not so sure about.

Yeah the three dilute genes are really a pain to assess without breeding histories. All the above posts are correct about the fact that this chick could be either SF greywing SF dilute, or DF greywing. Its impossible to tell without pairing it to a dilute which is the only variety recessive to greywing. If you have 100% grewying chicks, then you know this chick is DF grewying. If it results in 50% grewying 50% dilute, then it was SF greywing SF dilute. Dilute varieties can be such a headache

I am quite involved with the show 'scene' and have tried to befriend the biggest and best breeders around. I spent a few months picking their brains and annoying them, especially during their breeding seasons. Learned a lot about the politics that go on and all the in-fighting lol. Its small wonder what few newbies they get dont stick around over here! The time, effort and cost of competing at their level is daunting. They seem so far ahead, and i have heard so many stories of the lengths breeders will go to to prevent their bloodline or best birds from being 'too helpful' to anyone else competing. Understandable, but to me it is sad and not in the true spirit of competition or friendship. My passion and love regarding budgies has always been about the genetics and the breeding. I would love to see if its possible to restore or improve certain mutations and keep them pure, and while i am certainly a big fan of well proportioned and i guess 'bigger' birds, colour is my thing I hated the look of show birds at first, but it has grown on me. My first goal was to breed rainbow budgies, but i have had no luck obtaining clearwings of any sort, let alone clearwings with a breeding history! I had hoped to breed rainbows after two or three generations, but i dont think that will work in the time i have remaining before moving overseas. Basically what i am doing now is developing my 'eye'. I have purchased what one could quite fairly call 'moderate' quality show birds at best, some better than others. I am hoping to see if what i put together in my mind, fixes and improves the offspring in the way i think it will. Basically im trying to put what i have learned to test, and go from reading and thinking, to 'seeing and feeling/knowing'. I agree it is very hard to know which birds to keep or sell. But i have had a great example from my first ever clutch this season, twin boys who are mutationally identical to their dad and eachother (YF2 sky blue opalines). Mutations is one thing to breed for, but these two have shown me about the show side of breeding. From the same parents, these two boys are very different - one is taller, wider, longer in feather, has larger throat spots and longer bib and basically excells in every way over his brother. Im a week or two away from releasing dad back into the main flight with them, and i suspect that same son has or will surpass his dad in every way. Its a great learning curve for me, and will be worth so much when i settle in a long term place and begin a long term breeding program. Oh, and my other love is violets I have two VERY VERY purple pet type spangle budgies a cock and a hen, i hope they will breed next season when they are old enough because while i was at first dissapointed that i could only find spangle violets of such colour, now i am pleased and hope to produce a DF spangle DF violet skyblue with a suffused violet bib (i fell in love with splats winning DF spangle green cock lol). I think that would be awesome Of course more violets of any type from this pair would be gorgeous. I'll post pics of my flock once my breeding season is complete.

No way! Thats sad to hear. I would recommend downsizing. I only have around 20 birds at the moment including bred chicks that i am waiting to see develop before deciding who to sell. As this was my first attempt at breeding, i only managed to get 2 pairs down successfully. I have 5 breeding cages and i think for me, that is sufficient for now. Perhaps you should look at going down to around 10 breeding pairs, with 5 spair breeding pairs. Between 30-40 of your best birds, then selling culls of old and new with the odd cross-out coming in. I cant imagine giving up breeding these guys. At least not for long, and only if i move overseas or something major lol. Once im settled i know what i'll be building then re-starting! Breeding trouble aside, you seem to have done a superb job and have a great passion. I hope you stick with it!

Sorry! Should have been more clear! The above breeding outcomes are for dark factor alone, although you have the same outcomes for grey since you are likely dealing with 1 grey factor and 1 dark factor in each parent. I dont have a mutation calculator, i just go off my head, but there are a number of variations you can get from this pairing but i cant yet think of the chances for each. There are only 6 phenotypes possible (as SF and DF are phenotypically identical), but 9 genotypes possible. Edit: You could get something along the lines of: (6.25%) Light green, (12.5%) Light SF Grey Green, (6.25%) Light DF Grey Green (12.5%) Green, (25%) SF Grey Green, (12.5%) DF Grey Green (6.25%) Olive Green, (12.5%) Olive SF Grey Green, (6.25%) Olive DF Grey Green

Im sorry to hear of your problems, but at the same time im intrigued. I always hope to be able to learn from my own mistakes and the experiences of others so i would be very interested to see if you are able to come up with some reasons behind these problems at some point. I would love it even more if you were able to find a solution and have a great finish to your breeding season :bow: My own 'assumptions' at this point would be the deformed beaks are either a result of caked on food inside the beak, or parents that arent good feeders. Dead chicks and infertile hens are a dime a dozen some seasons unfortunately, but nutrition and breeding condition definately factor in. Two babies didnt grow flights and 40 day old slow growers (the unfeathered ones?) to me indicates either lack of food from parents, lack of nutrients from food or perhaps feather mites?

With grey and dark factor greens there are only 6 distinct phenotypes. Light Green, Light Grey green Green, Grey Green Olive Green, Olive Grey Green. Double factor greys will appear the same as single factor greys. If you have two grey greens (1 dark factor each) then you have the following breeding outcomes: 25% Light greens 50% Greens 25% Olive Greens

Grey is an adding factor similar to violet except that it is unique in its double factor form. Double factor greys are no darker than Single factor and are therefore indistinguishable except through breeding in that they produce all greys (or grey greens). I have only ever heard good things about grey in regards to feather and size. Honestly, look at all the show champion pictures, how many greys and grey greens do you see? Vast majority! If you pair two SF greys or grey greens you can expect 25% no grey factor, 50% SF grey, 25% DF grey but you wont tell which are DF until they breed. I have never heard anyone discourage breeding greys to grey for any other reason than to give caution - and even then all they said is 'be careful or you'll soon be overrun with greys"

Excellent post RIP!

Happened to me 3 times this season. Always with the last chick. Its avoidable if you can swap out bigger chicks to foster nests and keep the numbers down. The oldest chicks are huge by the time babies 5,6 and onwards hatch. Another thing that might help is putting 1-3 fake eggs in the nest for the small chicks to hide between or rest on. I'm definately going to be more careful around the time the lasts chicks hatch next breeding season.

Im surprised this topic hasnt had a great deal more imput!

I have also heard recessive pied, violet, 2x dark factor and most other recessive varieties reduce size. I have also heard greys can be used to increase size or feathering, which is why you hardly see greens or blues. You see grey greens and greys in a lot of shows. I hear you use opalines to increase melanine or throat spots and that flecking is a sign you have done just that. Then its a matter of breeding that flecked bird to a bird who's melanin or throats need 'fixing'. I dont personally believe recessive pied or recessive varieties reduce size, i personally feel that they havent been worked with or bred as thoroughly as normals or dominant mutations which are easier to do, therefore most specimens of that mutation are smaller. Perhaps size is connected with recessive pied, and the only reason dominant mutations are now big is some sort of crossover between parents that allowed larger versions of what once was a smaller variety to be bred. As far as violet or 2x dark factor goes, I really cant say anything as yet. Most of my violets are small pet types, but also my biggest bird is a violet. So again i think it depends on what line your violet has come through. I truly believe that if you have time, patience, great crossovers and both a mind and an eye for selection - you can bring up the quality of any mutation. I dont think any one particular colour or mutation is doomed to be small.

I know 9 & 10 messed me up. Couldnt make out any white and ceres look blue so i thought males. Sold a chick just like that and it turned out it was a male after all. Should have known those two would do the same! haha

Just found this topic. I am shocked to see that anyone could so recklessly sell a chick and give such minimal information regarding its care needs. I think i had better leave my rant at that! It will only gain momentum otherwise lol. Good on you for trying your best and doing your all for this bird. I hate to think what might have happened were it to go to someone a little less fortunate. Best of luck, please keep us posted.

Is that an opaline spangle violet green? I just wonder, because it doesnt look grey green, nor does it look normal green to me. It looks like a violet khaki color?

I'd say the hen isnt an opaline spangle too. Also, daves opaline spangles are so gorgeous. The colour is so vibrant and the feathering is awesome!

Yes i would agree about that cock. Has some opalescence, but is not an opaline. It could be that he is split for opaline, as this can cause some opalescence. If breeding shows he is not split, then i would wager he is bred from a cock split opaline, or has some opaline in his lineage. Opalescence can sometimes be passed on without the gene itself being present. Also, this is just an un-educated opinion having never owned or seen TCB's, but arent they commonly mistaken as opaline tcb's? TCB isnt always perfectly clear and often shows colour in the wings, leading to confusion over opalescence when in fact it is just a slightly more suffused TCB. Just a thought Nice birds pearce P.S Not one to be an alarmist, but i think given all the problems with mega bac and cocci some members are having right now, i definately think now is a great time for long quarantines!!

I'd have to agree and say its a spangle dom pied. Look at the few wing markings it has on the shoulder, they are scalloped like any other spangle. Its hard to spot, but im pretty sure its there. Clearly different to the two in the other picture.

Im sure to some this is a great blow and what not, but there is something to be said about the visual loss of a budgies eyes due to directional feathering and 'blow'. Im left looking for its face...

Two ino parents can only produce ino chicks. There is no other possibility. Though they may have been YF albinos in this case (meaning they are blue, not split for blue), and they may be passing on any number of mutations with the YF, yet they will remain ino's. Ino is a sex linked gene which masks all other genes bar yellowface, cinnamon and to some degree, violet (i am told). The likely reason for the YF blue chick is that the hen had a romp with another cock prior to laying.

Goldenface is a much stronger yellow colour, still par-blue, but when placed next to a YF1 or YF2 is obviously a lot brighter in colouration. I believe goldenfaces originated in australia and were imported to NZ and the UK.

Were you colony breeding or cabinet breeding? Its unlikely that two lutino's could produce anything other than lutinos, so i suspect either your hen mated with another cock that you werent aware of or one of the parents (likely then hen) was not actually a lutino.

I love the angles and shapes in this picture. I have a preference for shots that are less 'classic' or 'posey'. Good shot

So sorry to hear! I feel bad enough that i have 2 chicks losing flights and tail feathers and im running around trying to figure it out and fix it. Cant imagine what you're going through! Thoughts are with you!