Dean_NZ

Cock is definitely violet, hen i cant be sure about. Either violet sky or cobalt, shame she has a pied tail and you cant be sure Breeding will help prove it either way

Opaline lacewing?

Yay Always love to hear about those good outcomes in risky situations!

Just like what happened with my baby hen when i tried to splint her splayed legs, ended up BREAKING her leg and had to euthanize her. Feel for ya

Hello and welcome

The photo really doesnt do these eggs justice! When I saw it i was literally It looked like a small football

I paid $100 each for a few of my new birds. Considering all the trouble im having, I DEFINITELY feel I over paid But you know me GB, I'll do my best to get my moneys worth. If I can get anything out of them, I WILL!

I think it's even more amazing when you know how budgies produce eggs. To save me writing it out, here is a quote: Source: Avian Reproduction Here is a picture of the ovary which DOES explain visually how a double yolker would be possible (if two yolk 'buds' developed and released simultaneously instead of maturing one after the other). As you can see - the yolk is fertilised well before the egg begins even forming: The process of encasing this yolk once released (ovulation) is here: Here is some more info: Source: Poultry help website Because of the internal changes to the layout of the air sack etc and the lack of space, double yolkers rarely hatch successfully alpaca boy. I know of a few that were fertile, but died when they ran out of space, or perhaps the movement of one chick disrupted the yolk/amniotic sac of the other chick and killed it etc. I will cross my fingers but the chances are slim! Also, they are twins, but they will be fraternal twins not identical Fraternal means they shared an egg but are from different embryos.

Maiden hen?

Violets show best in pictures when they are standing next to their non violet counterparts. Eg violet cobalt standing next to cobalt, violet sky's next to normal sky's. Etc etc etc.

Hello and welcome! Officially this time

Knowing what can happen in a breeding season, I would expect anything. Go on, buddy, spill the beans. We will understand what you are going through The oldest of the two surviving chicks developed splayed legs (both). I was applying the sponge method to correct this and all was going well when the chick gave a massive kick, squirmed around and I dont know how it happened but trying not to drop the thing I somehow broke its leg right at the hip joint. It was CLEARLY broken and I had to euthanize it. I was so beyond belief at that point. I had told myself I could handle ALL the other stuff going on because I had those two lovely babies. And then because I somehow muffed up the sponge thing, I had to kill one of the two babies who were keeping me from really getting down about things. So I was NOT prepared mentally for that! Hit me really hard. She was going to be such a beauty, i just know it. Her sister has a lot riding on her now lol. You know what the funny thing is, at first I thought "no more budgie ANYTHING tonight, im DONE". But somehow I ended up here blabbing on about violets and I couldnt help but feel better. Man I love these silly birds!

I would have advised you take pictures first so we can ascertain the presence or absence of violet factors, but good luck if you get them.

Oh boy. I hope this works out. I have a feeling you've taken the new kid on the block road... You seem as excited and keen as most of us and that often ends up doing more harm than good! If i had to start over as a beginner, I would have taken a mentor to help me buy birds! Show us pics

Hey guys Amidst all this blasted breeding drama I have swapped in a couple of new pairs and let some of the more disastrous ones back into the flights for a bit. Anyway, one of the hens I put in was rearing to go in the aviary and quickly settled into the nest box. I noticed her egg bum at about day 8, and on day 9 she was really quite swollen. She was very heavy in the vent area. Had a look yesterday and saw this monster (the egg next to it is a normal sized egg from another nest that was clear, i borrowed it just for the photo): OUCH! I feel sorry for her having to push that out! I have candled it and it appears to be a double yolker. It should be fertile, but I know most double yolkers dont survive the hatching process or even make it that far due to limited space/air. It seems like a very accommodating sized egg though - would have as good a chance as a double yolker could get i imagine.

Thanks heaps for all the info..... brain starting to understand the complex violet LOL. So does that mean the intensity of the colour violet or the percentage of violet young produced? ( with the DF violet) Double factor violet IS a more intense violet (or in the case of greens etc, a more intense or richer 'darkening'). I guess you could technically say any double factor violet will be visual violet (in the blue series birds). As far as breeding goes, yes any double factor violet will be guaranteed to produce all single factor violets when paired to a non violet bird. When paired to a single factor violet, you will get all violet chicks, half being single factor, half being double factor. For this reason I would recommend those starting to breed violets use normal sky blues with violet factor as the ONLY colour/shade difference you will get will be the shades of sky blue, single factor violet sky blue and double factor violet sky blue. The absence of the dark factor makes identifying the single and double factor violet skies much much easier. You could then pair a double factor violet sky to a cobalt to get 50% single factor violet sky and 50% single factor violet cobalt chicks. OR pair it to a normal mauve to get 100% single factor violet cobalts (100% visual violets). Be aware that in ALL colours, there are birds with naturally bright and intense (I.E. 'good') colouring, and birds with naturally POOR colouring. It is wise to be aware of these genetic traits as they are inherited (quality of colour is of course dependant on its own mutation or mutations and therefore one must learn to recognise, value and breed with good coloured or marked birds when breeding. More important when breeding for colour, but always something any show breeder should strive to maintain or improve). There are plenty of written and verbal accounts of poor coloured cobalts that look like darker sky blues, and brightly coloured sky blues that make cobalts look lame by comparison!.

You guys wont even believe what happened today.... So disappointed I cant even bring myself to explain, lets just say when it rains it POURS. I'll be lucky to come out of this season with a single live chick.

There remains a lot of confusion over violets, and many many people still have trouble identifying them. Some still believe that it is a dominant gene like grey (meaning single and double factor are visually identical or that there is no true 'double factor'). People also continue to believe that the violet factor is ATTACHED to either the dark factor or the light factor. For example they think a violet cobalt will have the violet gene attached to the 'dark factor' gene. When this bird is paired to a normal sjy, they state it will only produce visual violets (single factor violet cobalts) and normal sky blues as the violet only goes where the dark factor goes.I disproved this notion in my first ever pairing of a violet cobalt hen to a sky cock - I got violet skys and cobalts! This only proved what I already knew from reading about the nature of the violet gene in other articles. At any rate, the violet gene is separate (not attached to any other mutation or gene) and it is PARTIAL dominant - meaning the single factor of the gene can express itself visually and the double dose of the gene expresses itself more so. The violet factor isnt a colour adding factor like grey - it actually affects the structure of the feather and changes the refraction of light (it changes the types of light it absorbs/reflects, which affects the colour). The single factor violet is most easily seen as 'purple' or a 'true violet' when paired with a single dark factor on a blue budgie. This is because cobalts are the closest colour on the colour spectrum of budgies (sky, cobalt, mauve, light green, dark green, olive, light grey, grey, dark grey, light grey green, grey green, dark greygreen, lutino, albino) to the colour purple. Essentially the gene alters the feather structure, shifts the spectrum of light reflected by the feathers and the 'cobalt' now reflects purple light. The only exception to this is the double factor violet sky - where the double dose of violet is powerful enough to alter the sky blue colour along the scale until it is close in colour to a single factor violet cobalt (but a double factor violet sky placed next to a single factor violet cobalt is actually a 'prettier' visual violet on account of the silkier nature of the sky feathers and the double dose of the violet factor). Double factor violet cobalts are without doubt the most stunning of the violets, owing to the depth and richness of the violet on top of the cobalt colouring. The same single factor gene DOES affect ALL budgie colours, but it wont make them PURPLE. The gene is ALWAYS expressed, it cannot be hidden - it is simply not always recognised as 'violet' because it wont make other colours purple. The effect on sky blues is mentioned above. The mauve budgie is interesting, normal mauves look almost like grey budgies. Single factor violet mauves are a midnight purple, its very hard to describe... its like a purple rain cloud colour, there are shades of grey, purple and an almost black/ash colour. I have not yet seen a double factor violet mauve, but imagine it would be quite the colour.In green budgies the violet factor has the VISUAL effect of a dark factor - light greens appear as very nicely coloured dark greens. Dark greens look like very DARKLY coloured dark greens (I have a violet dark green, should really get a picture). I have not seen a violet olive as olives and mauves are not very commonly bred due to most peoples aversion to breeding dark factor to dark factor (plus the few people breeding violet as it is too confusing to bother with for many). Greys are possibly the worst colour to put violet into. I had a violet grey and it was very difficult to label it as such until it was placed next to normal greys, at which point the violet did become obvious. As a general rule I would NEVER pair greys to violets for anyone intending to breed violets. If you want to breed greys, you can put them to anything, but dont put grey INTO your violets if you are hoping for violets. The main reason you want to avoid opaline, cinnamon, spangle etc when starting or continuing a violet line is the tails - often the easiest way to identify violet in greens and sky blues where the violet factor is questionable is to look at the tail. A dark green or cobalt 'looking' bird with a teal/aqua tail is obviously a light green violet or a sky blue violet as dark greens and cobalts have navy blue tails. Greys have black tails no matter how much violet you put in them so its impossible to use the tail to ascertain dark factor OR violet factor. Spangle tails get turned to white because of the colour reversal, cinnamon turns the tail brown and makes it difficult to judge base colour. Opaline also ruins the tail, causing a general fading of colour or a huge white mark up the majority of the tail spreading from the center out towards the edge of the feather. Dominant pied can also affect the tail, but I would only introduce pied after establishing a good family/line of double factor violets so the tail wouldnt be as necessary having already established true records of violet carriage throughout the family. For this reason I would suggest: Breed blue factor violets only (if possible - greens are fine, but create a lot of wasteage in nests if you are hoping for visual violets and in the best scenario of breeding with a violet green budgie split blue, 50% of the chicks will be green and therefore never visual violets so these pairings automatically half your chances of getting visual violets). Avoid opaline, spangle, cinnamon, GREY and other mutations that affect the use of the tail unless you are confidant in your ability to visually identify violet being carried through different (non visual violet) colours. So in answer to your questions: All violet carriers are 'potent' and equally 'able' to pass the gene on. Their ability to create a visual violet depends entirely on their colour factor (blue, green, grey, ino etc) and their dark factor (the easiest visual violet to obtain of course being a single factor violet cobalt). You get a double factor violet by pairing single factor to single factor initially. Single factor violet X single factor violet (regardless of other mutations) results in 50% single factor violet, 25% double factor violet and 25% NO violet (1/4 chicks no violet, 1/4 chicks double factor violet, 2/4 chicks single factor like the parents). Also, I think i just forgot to factor in the dom pied in the second pairing hehehehe. I'll go back and edit it I couldnt edit my post so here is the correction (notice how adding in a single extra mutation changes your chances of getting the combination you hope for... compare it to the original, each new mutation HALVES your original chances and DOUBLES the number of unique variations you can get in the offspring) violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ? Again it is difficult to assess the dark factor of the cock or the hen, but assuming the cock AND the hen have one dark factor then all cocks will be split for cinnamon (and should therefore be considered as of minimal benefit to future violet breeding if you want to avoid cinnamon in your violets) and the rest is as follows: 3.125% Normal Sky blue 3.125% Dominant pied sky blue 3.125% Normal light Grey (zero dark factor) 3.125% Dominant pied light Grey (zero dark factor) 3.125% SF violet Sky blue 3.125% Dominant pied SF violet Sky blue 3.125% SF violet light grey (zero dark factor) 3.125% Dominant pied SF violet light grey (zero dark factor) 6.25% Normal Cobalt 6.25% Dominant pied cobalt 6.25% Normal Grey (single dark factor) 6.25% Dominant pied Grey (single dark factor) 6.25% SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - One in SIXTEEN chicks from this pairing will be normal visual violets) 6.25% Dominant pied SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - One in SIXTEEN chicks from this pairing will be visual violet dominant pieds) 6.25% SF violet grey (single dark factor) 6.25% Dominant pied SF violet grey (single dark factor) 3.125% Normal Mauve 3.125% Dominant pied mauve 3.125% Dark grey (Double dark factor grey) 3.125% Dominant pied Dark grey (Double dark factor grey) 3.125% SF violet Mauve 3.125% Dominant pied SF violet Mauve 3.125% SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)3.125% Dominant pied SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

Tip for violets - AVOID: Grey, green, greygreen, Ino (obviously) Cinnamon, opaline, dilute (grewying and clearwing are okay if you want to specialise in them otherwise avoid them too). These mutations will all subtract from the brilliance of the violet mutation. Some may argue that you 'need' to cross your violets to greys or greens to 'keep up the colour' but this is codswallop plain and simple. Anyone who tells you bluexblue pairings will lose colour needs to learn more about colour genetics and the modes of inheritance. I love the contrast of yellowface on violets, but I think if you are going to specialise in dominant pied violets, then I would probably be inclined to stick with normal white face as the crisp white of the face, wing and body band in contrast with the purple is stunning. I only recently saw some violet dom pieds and they are definately something I can see myself making a line/family of later once I have good violet numbers (so hard to get violets). As far as violet pairings go, either parent can be pied, but my preferred matings are: Violet (single or double factor) sky blue x violet (single or double factor) cobalt Where possible I avoid cobaltXcobalt, and actually would prefer first to build up a good line/family of double factor violet skies before even introducing dark factor if possible. However the lure of the obvious 'visual' violet of single factor violet cobalts very tempting so you may want to do the sky x cobalt pairings where possible. violet cock x cobalt blue dominant pied hen = ? assuming the violet cock is single factor violet cobalt then: 6.25% Normal Sky blue 6.25% Dominant pied Sky blue 6.25% SF violet Sky blue 6.25% SF violet dominant pied Sky blue 12.5% Normal Cobalt 12.5% Dominant pied Cobalt 12.5% SF violet Cobalt (visual violet) 12.5% SF violet dominant pied Cobalt (THIS IS THE CHANCE OF GETTING THE CHICK YOU WANT - 12.5% or 1 in 8 chicks going by the odds) 6.25% Normal Mauve 6.25% Dominant Pied Mauve 6.25% SF violet Mauve 6.25% SF violet dominant pied Mauve violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ? Again it is difficult to assess the dark factor of the cock or the hen, but assuming the cock AND the hen have one dark factor then all cocks will be split for cinnamon (and should therefore be considered as of minimal benefit to future violet breeding if you want to avoid cinnamon in your violets) and the rest is as follows: 6.25% Normal Sky blue 6.25% Normal light Grey (zero dark factor) 6.25% SF violet Sky blue 6.25% SF violet light grey (zero dark factor) 12.5% Normal Cobalt 12.5% Normal Grey (single dark factor) 12.5% SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - 1 in 8 chicks from this pairing will be normal visual violets) 12.5% SF violet grey (single dark factor) 6.25% Normal Mauve 6.25% Dark grey (Double dark factor grey) 6.25% SF violet Mauve 6.25% SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

Thanks guys. I try to take it all in my stride - I had heard the 'better' birds bred poorly but I guess I had hoped it would be different for me lol. I am totally pleased with the 2 chicks I *DO* have as they are from a delicious looking cock bird and I had only wanted hens from the pairing - both chicks are hens!! I feel fortunate that I have forums like this as a support and resource, although I would plod along on my own without them I get so much more enjoyment out of the hobby being amongst like minded people such as yourselves. Its great experiencing the highs and lows with you, makes the lows more bearable and the highs more satisfying. @ Splat - I do have a feeling things will improve with the weather getting warmer. I did start earlier this year than I ever have before so perhaps that also is part of it. I accept this is part of breeding, so I will try and learn what I can, improve what I can and move forward

Oooh how terrible. Always the best ones huh T_T

*EDIT* (Sorry the table didn't post very well, hope you can read it!) Hi guys. As many of you might know, I have plodded along with average quality birds for the last 2 years to get hands on experience. Last year I bred over 50 chicks from only 4 pairs and although I have experienced most problems - clear eggs, DIS, chicks not fed, deformed chick (single), plucked chicks, damaged eggs etc etc it has always been in small amounts. This year I spent a lot of money on new birds of a much better quality and put them down to breed. For the first time I have had TERRIBLE results as you can see from the quick table below: 6 nest boxes 37 eggs (Avg 6 eggs per nest) 6 clear (Avg 1 egg per nest) 31 Fertile 3 died while hatching -28 2 hatched and are healthy -26 6 eaten (2x nests, 3x eggs each) -20 2 malformed -18 6 porous DIS (old hen) -12 5 fertile (live embryos still) -7 2 Damaged -3 2 died after hatching -5 3 unexplained DIS 0 As you can see - I currently have TWO live chicks from 37 eggs over 6 pairs. One hen is an unrung foster hen who i had a feeling was past her egg producing years - so the 6 porous eggs are hers. Still the remaining 31 eggs have produced me TWO live chicks and only 5 fertile eggs remain and to be honest - I would consider it a small miracle if the A) make it to hatching or live AFTER hatching. I have been wracking my brains to think of reasons why this might be and so far have put it down to these factors: - Placed the new birds down to breed too soon. - Majority of hens were maiden Another possibility I looked at is: - At the start of the year I changed seed suppliers - the birds seemed to adapt to this fine, no fluffing up, no runny bums. The old seed mix was 50% pure canary, 50% mixed millet. New seed mix is a pre-made budgie mix of canary, millet (mixed?) and oats - im unsure of raitos exactly but its probably 50% canary, 40% millet and 10% oats. I offered rolled oats as additional feed once every 1-2 weeks, and I continue to feed the usual broccoli, carrot, corn and soft food mix that i've always fed. As I read over the table listed above, the problems seem to indicate to me nutritional deficiency (eggs eating, hatching weak, failing to hatch, DIS just prior to hatch). What are your thoughts? Is it more that the pairs were placed down too soon (and either werent fed too well in their previous aviary or didnt have time to build back up after the stress of changing?). Is it perhaps indicative of a nutritional flaw in my feeding regime? Please dont be afraid to be blunt or honest. I wont be offended - Im always trying to make improvements and to do this I feel one must be freely able to admit flaws and make corrections (based on good sound knowledge and evidence). You wont scare me away and while I am deeply upset by the problems, I am always determined to do the best by my birds and want to make sure I am doing everything I need to to make things run smoothly and keep them in tip top shape (and THEN keeping them healthy for and during breeding). Cheers

I noticed that very same hen before I even caught site of the cock the photo was supposed to be about! I would love that hen to fly to NZ!

Pied spot. Could mean its a pied, or split for recessive pied. Or sometimes they just show up im told. Normal

Aww man I wish my babies were this tame after I put them back in the aviary! I cant wait until I buy my own house and can build a proper bird room so I can walk in like that and have my birds come play. Awesome pics!