renee

My second chickie of the season arrived today! It is to the Blue line nest of the 09 Cobalt cock paired to a 11 Sky hen sitting on 8 fertile eggs and it has little white feathers all over its body so I'm taking that as an indicator that it will have good feather - Fingers Crossed! I am thrilled to say she fed it with no second thoughts at all!!!! This is excellent news as she has another 7 to hatch I did have the Lute hen lined up to take over if there were any issues and the 1st hatched ready to be swapped in but what a relief that is not necessary. Unfortunately I have serious doubts I will be getting any more chicks from that Lute nest. I had a look today and the eggs don't look right. Not exactly addled but off. Time will tell. This is the second time I have been caught out on this. I was sure I had a nest of fertile eggs with an Albino pair but then they started to go a motley sort of colour and I was finally forced to accept they were off.

Well Pride I did order 120 rings which currently is looking wildly optimistic! But no matter. I still have 8 days to turn things around so I am not panicking yet I have chucked some more eggs today and there is still a nest I am eyeing off .... It's my Magenta rung Green boy and his hen, a Normal Green, (both Maidens) has laid 5 beautiful large eggs - but I reckon they're clear. She has 4 days more to prove me wrong or they'll get a nest change! The elusive Fertile egg from yesterday's post belonged to a pair of Albinos and the hen was on 6 eggs .... 6/1 is not a good ratio so I popped it into the nest of my Super Albino - a risk, I know - and have chucked the other clear eggs. Hopefully they'll go down again with a better success rate. The hen is an experienced 08 rung but the cock bird is a son to the Super Albino and a Maiden, one fertile egg indicates that he is getting the hang of things .... Some more fertile eggs showed today but I haven't taken any notes of that yet (I do that in the evening) However, there are a few eggs I am concerned about: it just seems like the hen is not turning them properly, I will wait and see if they turn addled or not. Chickie is doing well, he has black eyes so it look like he will be Normal Green split Lute as planned.

Cross fingers Fertile eggs will start to show soon!

Actually Pride I was aiming for double that ... at least I am still waiting on 20 nests .... Just noticed a typo .... I have now entered Week 4 of breeding - sorry for that! And a further note on the pair changes - I have changed a hen who didn't lay eggs (despite the encouraging presence of a false egg) after 2 1/2 weeks. She seemed nest bound as well. Another kept carefully rolling her eggs out of the nest box Another hen kept pooping in the nest box so the eggs were all covered in **** And they Grey cock bird I alluded to earlier insisted on incubating the eggs with the hen but I had no evidence that he was actually mating her (5 clear eggs) Oh I suppose there is another if I think about it .... right at the beginning, the Grey hen to my Super Albino who bled so profusely I thought she had prolapsed with her first egg .... well she made a very rapid and remarkable recovery and is now down to Magic

So today I am going to a fertility report, omitting recent nest changes and pair changes and pairs I am considering doing either of very soon. So first things first ....Today my first chick of the season arrived! It is to an 08 Green split Cinnamon cock and 09 Lute hen. I really doubt he will do anything to improve my Lute line but the silly hen refused 2 perfectly beautiful Normal Green boys and only had eyes for him She is sitting on a nest of 5 eggs, 3 more chicks to hatch. My other DF Lute pairing is also doing okay, 6 eggs and 3 are showing fertile at this stage. I have 2 Violet cock birds (which I have been including in the Blue line) that are also doing very well. 10 Violet cock split Opaline to a 10 Sky hen is sitting on 8 eggs of which 7 are showing fertile and his son, a 11 Cobalt Violet paired to JK 08 Cobalt hen is sitting on 5 eggs of which 2 are showing fertile at this time .... I am hoping more will show soon. Still with the Blue line and I have an 09 Cobalt cock paired to a 11 Sky hen sitting on 8 fertile eggs (100%) Now the 11 Grey Dommie Pied (grandson of the JK Greygreen boy) is paired to another JK 08 Cobalt hen and she is sitting on 6 eggs of which 5 are fertile. Another maiden 11 Cobalt Dommie Pied is paired to a 10 Sky hen and has done the business as well with her sitting on 7 eggs of which 5 are fertile! The Dommie Pied Green series is doing so-so. I have a 10 Sky DP to a 11 Green hen sitting on 6 eggs of which 5 are fertile but that is about it at this stage. The Green Normal series is not doing too much better .... I have a couple of maidens paired, Cobalt cock and Green hen and she is sitting on 6 eggs of which 4 are fertile. Then there's a 09 Green cock paired to a 11 Green hen sitting on 6 eggs of which 3 are fertile at this stage. The Double Factor Yellow line is doing all right, I suppose. My best 10 DF cock (who took out best UBC and then some months later Best in Show down at SWBC) is paired to an 11 Greygreen Spangle and she is sitting on 5 eggs of which 3 are showing fertile at this stage. Also I have a very buff Light Green Spangle paired to the sister of the previous pair, another 11 Greygreen Spangle and she is sitting on 6 eggs of which 6 are fertile (100%). But in my DF White line I only have One fertile nest. An 09 Grey Spangle cock is paired to the daughter of my super Foundation bird, a Grey Cinnamon Spangle is sitting on 8 eggs of which 4 are showing fertile at this stage. Considering how many Recessive Pied pairs I have down the results are disappointing to say the least. Yes, Medusa has 1 solitary fertile egg but she is on 3 and doesn't look like she is going to lay any more ... The only other fertile nest is to yet again another Maiden cock bird, son of Medusa who is Normal Green split RP paired to an 08 RP sitting on 7 eggs of which 5 are showing fertile at this stage. Within the next 10 days I am considering a complete shake up of the other pairs. And the situation with my Albino pairings is even less inspiring. In all fairness I do have a nest beginning to show, that of my Super C&B Albino cock to his daughter ( 1 fertile egg out of 3 and she is still laying) and there is another fertile egg somewhere else .... To date I have made 3 hen changes and 1 cock change and made 2 new pairings. Plus 5 nest changes (chucking all clear eggs) and I'm eyeing a few more. So in summary, Week 3 and I have 1 chick - looking very well fed, and 60 fertile eggs.

Thank You Finnie for a brilliant article Here it is in full - Stages in chick embryo development One of the greatest miracles of nature is the transformation of the egg into the chick. A chick emerges after a brief three weeks of incubation. The complexity of the development cannot be understood without training in embryology. When the egg is laid, some embryonic development has occurred and usually stops until proper cell environmental conditions are established for incubation to resume. At first, all the cells are alike, but as the embryo develops, cell differences are observed. Some cells may become vital organs; others become a wing or leg. Soon after incubation begins, a pointed thickened layer of cells becomes visible in the caudal or tail end of the embryo. This pointed area is the primitive streak, and is the longitudinal axis of the embryo. From the primitive streak, the head and backbone of the embryo develop. A precursor of the digestive tract forms; blood islands appear and will develop later into the vascular or blood system; and the eye begins. On the second day of incubation, the blood islands begin linking and form a vascular system, while the heart is being formed elsewhere. By the 44th hour of incubation, the heart and vascular systems join, and the heart begins beating. Two distinct circulatory systems are established, an embryonic system for the embryo and a vitelline system extending into the egg. At the end of the third day of incubation, the beak begins developing and limb buds for the wings and legs are seen. Torsion and flexion continue through the fourth day. The chick's entire body turns 90o and lies down with its left side on the yolk. The head and tail come close together so the embryo forms a "C" shape. The mouth, tongue, and nasal pits develop as parts of the digestive and respiratory systems. The heart continues to enlarge even though it has not been enclosed within the body. It is seen beating if the egg is opened carefully. The other internal organs continue to develop. By the end of the fourth day of incubation, the embryo has all organs needed to sustain life after hatching, and most of the embryo's parts can be identified. The chick embryo cannot, however, be distinguished from that of mammals. The embryo grows and develops rapidly. By the seventh day, digits appear on the wings and feet, the heart is completely enclosed in the thoracic cavity, and the embryo looks more like a bird. After the tenth day of incubation, feathers and feather tracts are visible, and the beak hardens. On the fourteenth day, the claws are forming and the embryo is moving into position for hatching. After twenty days, the chick is in the hatching position, the beak has pierced the air cell, and pulmonary respiration has begun. After 21 days of incubation, the chick finally begins its escape from the shell. The chick begins by pushing its beak through the air cell. The allantois, which has served as its lungs, begins to dry up as the chick uses its own lungs. The chick continues to push its head outward. The sharp ***** structure on the upper beak (egg tooth) and the muscle on the back of the neck help cut the shell. The chick rests, changes position, and keeps cutting until its head falls free of the opened shell. It then kicks free of the bottom portion of the shell. The chick is exhausted and rests while the navel openings heal and its down dries. Gradually, it regains strength and walks. The incubation and hatching is complete. The ***** cap will fall off the beak within days after the chick hatches. EVENTS IN EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT Before Egg Laying:Fertilization Division and growth of living cells Segregation of cells into groups of special function (tissues) Between Laying and IncubationNo growth; stage of inactive embryonic life During Incubation: First day16 hours - first sign of resemblance to a chick embryo 18 hours - appearance of alimentary tract 20 hours - appearance of vertebral column 21 hours - beginning of nervous system 22 hours - beginning of head 24 hours - beginning of eye Second day25 hours - beginning of heart 35 hours - beginning of ear 42 hours - heart beats Third day60 hours - beginning of nose 62 hours - beginning of legs 64 hours - beginning of wings Fourth day - beginning of tongue Fifth day - formation of reproductive organs and differentiation of sex Sixth day - beginning of beak Eighth day - beginning of feathers Tenth day - beginning of hardening of beak Thirteenth day - appearance of scales and claws Fourteenth day - embryo gets into position suitable for breaking shell Sixteenth day - scales, claws and beak becoming firm and ***** Seventeenth day - beak turns toward air cell Nineteenth day - yolk sac begins to enter body cavity Twentieth day - yolk sac completely drawn into body cavity; embryo occupies practically all the space within the egg except the air cell Twenty-first day - hatching of chick

Thank you for your post. No, I don't know what it means - sorry. But I saw the same thing in 3 eggs last night and I almost threw them out. Now I will wait and watch - hopefully mine develop veins too

Oh so true. My top DF Yellow Spangles are innate posers as with my Recessive Pieds but my Green Normals (blue rung hen and cock birds) won Best in Variety and Best Opposite Sex in spite of themselves ... so often the comments from the judges was "definitely the best bird BUT ...." I've just done the evening egg count and I'm thrilled with the fertile egg count .... not all nests by any means but those with fertile eggs have a high fertility count. I'll do a stat report tomorrow.

Brilliant! Simply outstanding reply Fordmob! Thank you very much

You know it really was Pride Although the cock he likes best, actually my top magenta rung Green boy, is the same bird I dreamt of taking to Nationals until I popped him into a show cage .... where he promptly slouched over the perch and dropped his wings

Ummmmm. Not sure what's going on here but yeah it's pretty straightforward and 'cause Fordmob is an experienced breeder I am assuming he DOES have a Breeding Plan. If I get a Foundation cock bird I first try to breed numbers and then next generation I try to improve on one fault and then 3rd generation I breed back to siblings to cement the line (hopefully the fault I have eliminated stays in place too!) In 2008/9 I focussed on breeding depth of mask into my birds, last year I tried to fix some of their heavy flights and length of body and now this year I am cementing several lines. Meanwhile at the same time I try to keep my varieties clean, for example the DF Greys I bred in 2008 for my Albino line I can now use for the daughters of my Super Albino I bred in 2010 - so you see I breed sometimes years in advance of immediate availability. On top of juggling fault corrections, there is also the question of pairing of Maidens and maintaining enough experienced hens ... and back ups. Oh and then there's Feather quality, I almost forgot to mention that that comes into the mix when putting 2 birds together ... so for example, to use my Albino line again as an example: the buffest hens went to the longer bodied DF Grey cocks and the hen daughter that looked least like her father was then paired up with him. And then you have got the question of compatibility .... you know they have to fancy each other ... and be in condition to breed ... I don't know about you guys but I put hours and hours of thought ahead of each breeding season and right now my hubby has given up asking me what I am thinking about!

Thank You PJI for taking such excellent photos of fertile eggs in the early stages of their development. I am however, trying to find out what the earlier stages before veins are visible with candling look like. If anyone knows what actually happens (ie from an academic point of view) at the start of incubation, that would be good too.

Yes, things are improving Pride but there is a fair way to go yet! Today I had an aviary visit from John Kobilanski, very appreciated! John is one of WA's top breeders of Dommie Pieds and Yellow Faces, he also breeds Cinnamons, Opalines and Violets as well as Dark Factor Blues and Greens, Greys and Greygreens. We spent a good hour candling eggs (although he can tell just by looking at them!) and he gave Magic a looking over. It seems the time in the Holding Cage has improved things and he recommended putting him down again .... and I knew just who to!! My Grey hen who was initially down to the Super Albino escaped her cabinet yesterday and when I walked in I found her glued to the Holding Cage and Magic was trying to mate her through the wires All my Blue line, Green line and Greys come from stock birds I bought from John as a Novice so it was very gratifying to be able to point out their descendants to him .... though mine are a good way off where his birds are at now!!!!

Well done Fordmob for hitting the ground running, you certainly don't waste any time once you set your mind to something! I'm assuming you didn't need to quarantine 'cause you birds come from one source? No matter, a small detail! What I'd really like to know is your immediate PLAN!!! Is your aim just to breed numbers? Or maybe there are features you want cement or faults you want to remove? Perhaps you favour a certain variety or colour? Please, tell all!

That sucks GB I too had a nest of 3 Lutes whose little legs were around the ear holes .... in the end I had to put them down. Pity as they were the biggest bestest Lute chicks I ever bred

Hey Splat, another product I use for the same thing is Marshall's Megamix, it's marketed as an organic acid and the ingredients are Citric acid 1g/L. Although, thinking about it, probably the Apple Cider Vinegar is cheaper ...

Yes I agree - as soon as weather warms up lots of moths, mites, lice .... and I have had FM rear its head where there's been a carrier bird and the breeders have been down for more than 1 round. I am pretty confident I have eliminated all FM now and that Marshall's product S76 is very effective for Red Mites and the other crawlies. Now I'm doing just one round .... dunno if that's such a good thing .... I'm going to wait about 6 months and assess the youngsters I breed now and then make up my mind. It does mean that I am increasing the breeding age of my hens, so I won't be so hasty to move them on at the 4 yr mark.

What a difference a day makes! I'm seeing now that more fertile eggs are showing as the egg count reaches the 4 egg mark. So far I have chucked 3 addled eggs.

Aha! Thank you RIP for confirming that there are changes. Please be kind and describe what you have observed.

Cool, thanks for clearing up that misconception. SORRY Splat!!!

Thank you nubbly Yes, I have had a search but couldn't find exactly what I am looking for (ie. stages of pre-fertility) Well I've had a little think and so to answer my own question I would venture that seeing as the yolk sac feeds the soon-to-be-hatched-chick Then if it has dispersed throughout the egg it must make it an INFERTILE egg.

I don't know Renee, I am guessing it is from the seed, Rob Marshall says is an infection of the yolk sac and that Strep infection is the most common bacteria associated with budgies. Any suggestions. I'd close up the nest box and give the affected parents Doxy for 2 weeks. 3 years ago I did have Yellow Belly but since then no more after I routinely gave all birds 4-6 weeks treatment in the summer and then another 2 weeks prior to breeding. I keep mine in the fridge but it is worth checking how old it is and whether the Doxy has expired.

okay, let's approach this a different way. What do infertile eggs look like? For example, Yellow eggs where the yolk sac looks like it has dispersed throughout the egg?

How many Breeder Cabinets do you have on the go? Yellow belly in hatchlings... isn't that Chlamydia in the parents?

Well I hope so too The problem is I have a very restrictive time-line Splat. My Garage/Breeding room really starts to heat up in December so I really want all chickies ready for the aviary outside by 15th December .... when you work back it means I need everyone laying fertile eggs by 15th September. This year we will be painting the roof with Solar Reflect paint which does lower the temperature by 5C however, my main dilemma is the lack of effective breeze/air flow. Everywhere else gets the afternoon sea breeze but, because of positioning, not the Breeding room. And because I rent and the roof is asbestos I can't install one of those wheelie thingios. If things continue to go pear-shaped I am going to give up trying to breed at this time of year and go back to Autumn/Winter breeding.