falki

I had an opaline like that some time ago (photo below), we actually thought might be a clearbody, since she was already older when I got her, very mottled and later on actually gained more colour again and the mottledless lessened. Altogether 3 cases of "badly coloured" opalines that I have seen. The link shows a green male and his sister a friend of mine had. Later on I saw a mottled budgie in a petshop too, but at that time I was wise enough not to mix it to a clearbody (easley) I hope the picture is not too big?? http://s256.photobuc...%3DPICT7547.jpg

I was surprised to find the iris so early myself, I haven't noticed any on the other chicks though. This one really had the iris ring showing from under 30 days old, but even now it is hard to see unless the lighting is optimal. What comes to the aviary surroundings, I have the rest of the flock upstairs in a big cage, but free flying and they can well discuss with each other from downstairs through open staircase when ever they want. Other wise separated. So I guess, possibly, because I still don't quite believe it, but under the circumstances, when I've been told by experts - that he cannot be an australian dominant pied, that leaves me with only one option, which is the dutch pied. Still I wish the ceres on these chicks would end up blue and not pink, like the father has. But were it this way or that, the chicks are adorable and most of them have good new homes waiting already

After several shots... The eldest chicks eye: And a slightly bigger picture here.

I know that dutch pied is a form of the clearflight pied. It was all on this thread earlier on. I'd be happy, if you contacted either K Yorke or Inte Onsman what comes to your conclusions... really, this is just what they have told me and really, they know their genetics. I hope they don't mind me quoting on them in public And I didn't mean the basics genetics, but the genetics in the cellular level, that's what I haven't been studying. I do know how all is inherited etc. Well, but. I wish you wouldn't come and tell what Nieve is, when people who have bread dutch pieds and clearflights for many generations and who have bred all other possible mutations too, have told me about this birds mutation and that it is their opinion about it. You can say, that you don't believe it is a dutch pied, I'm having hard time believing it too (we don't even get normal looking clearflights here in Finland/Sweden), but you cannot say it for sure. This breeding, I hope, will tell the truth sooner or later, or if not this one, the next one then. And if you didn't read the whole Know Your Pieds article, I suggest you do it too, it's really good reading. Dutch pied is a variegated form of a clearflight, dutch comes originally from europe and other dominant pieds from australia. They got mixed later on and that's how pure dutch pieds are hard to come by nowadays. However, only dutch + rec. pied or clearflight + rec. pied can end up producing a DEC, so they do have something in common. Not everybody is convinced that they're actually the same mutation. Here's some more links on the dutch pied: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/dutchpie.htm http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/specialist/pieds/tom.html http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article9.htm

Oh, I wish you wouldn't bring the details up again I have BIG difficulties understanding the genetics on a higher lever, where you have to go deeper into the cells etc.. With which all this confusion could be explained properly. Anyway on some rare occasions a recessive + dominant pied can have ONE iris rings, but only that one. Never two, as the recessive pied can never haver iris rings. This I have been told by the author of this article, also, that the pink cere is just the pied marking (ie white) located on its cere, thus removing the colour from it, and this can be seen in pieds occasionally. So this is what I've been told about this bird, that he has all the hallmarks of a dutch pied, except for the pink cere. And here we are, waiting for the chicks to grow... And today, I looked very hard, in different lightings on the eldest chicks eyes (lucky me he's very curious) and he does really actually have a hint of iris ring already...!! I'm positively sure! Though I cannot be sure, that it will ever grow stronger.. But hoping for it. If RIP is still following this thread, maybe she could throw in some detailed knowledge in on the genetics, I know so little about...! And what comes to a double factor dominant pied, dominants don't ever have that grizzled type marking that recessive and dutch pieds show. And this too, I have only been told after asking questions about him, I really don't know much myself

Here's the same picture bigger, where you can see the dad's iris rings. He has them in both eyes. I've actually consulted the head of MUTAVI research & advice group on this, never made the conslusion on the mutation myself - and yes - I still have my doubts! But I'm sure, that if he's got the recessive pied gene, which is likely, there's something else too. And at the moment he actually even has some blue on his cere, I guess the hormones are really running as they're stared to mate again (but not going to give them a chance for a second round) Those two chicks can actually be recessive pieds even if the father was a dutch pied, incase he carries the rec pied gene. But well, I'm waiting for the ceres to turn to blue or stay pink and then wait for the iris rings, if they're to show

New pics now, as the chicks have all come out of the nest Eldest one with dad The cinnamon skyblue Cinnamon grey And the baby pied

They're just getting lovelier day after day I named them too, here's Filip(pa) as the gender is not for sure... if anyone has any clue...? He's now 31 days old. He took a little flight today too, when photographying them Very curious little creatures already, it won't be much longer he's out of the nest by himself. Number two is Flii, now 29 days. Here's Fleia, 25 days. And finally Fokus 23 days old.

Some fresh photos, no iris rings in these, but the eldest one has them coming, I do see them, actually! Here's still a link to a bigger picture, if someone else also can see the little brownish iris ring on the chick. But maybe you can see it only, when you hold the bird in your hand yourself. Grey dutch pied? (I'm still not convinced!) Has grey coming maybe half way up his chest, blotchy. Sky blue cinnamon opaline Grey cinnamon Grey pied

You're probably right I just want it to have iris rings so much, so obviously I'm trying too hard to see them okay, but, we'll leave them poor babies developing iris rings in their right time, maybe the ceres instead will tell something earlier on.

Fresh photos! Number one, now if you click on this, a bigger picture that is, can you (too?) see some irisrings developing already? At what time do they usually start developing them anyway? Number two, she's a cute little cinnamon girl, isn't she just! Number three, possibly grey, because I still can't see any blue anywhere, but she's cinnamon too. And finally four

Numbers two and three are indeed cinnamons, I can see it well now. Well, at least it's a good thing they're not the pied ones, I didn't wish for any surprises on this clutch, but you can never know. The male chick in the previous clutch from the same cock (his only offspring this far) was so scarsely marked, that I couldn't ever really tell if he was a cinnamon or not, but now I think he was. His mother was also a cinnamon, but in this clutch there can luckily be only cinnamon females. The only thing not wanting to have cinnamons is that the hen carries greywing and I don't like mixing those two mutations. Now if one of those pieds ended up being female I'd keep that, to secure not to carry on the cinnamon gene, but with my luck both of them are boys... But that remains yet to be seen.

A picture update! They all seem to be blue series, first one is a grey pied as I stated before. Second one is blue opaline but I think the colour is a little diluted, so maybe cinnamon. I wasn't sure about their eyes when just small babies, so I can't say. Third one is possibly also opaline, but the down I think is not as pure white, so not sure - she might be a cinnamon too. Fourth one is a pied developing white down, he had pure black eyes, so I don't think this one will end up being a cinnamonwing. In case someone wants to see bigger pics, I can link some. From left number one, three and two Number two Number three, cinnamon?? number three again and finally number four

I had a litter last year with a sf violet pairing (cobalt and skyblue) and one of the chicks seemed to be a DF violet cobalt and one possibly a DF violet sky. The difference between the SF and DF cobalt violet though was very small, only the colour on the possible DF violet was deeper and smoother violet, in my opinion. Sadly the pics never tell the truth about violets, here are my birds: With flash from left a possible DF cobalt violet "Dolly", cobalt or SF violet sky "Deana", cobalt on the front "Ejala", possible DF violet sky "Elouera" and the mother SF violet cobalt "Polly" Without Link to a bigger picture with flash. So I can't really be of help The only way to really know about these violets is to breed with a non violet and see if all the chicks turn out to be violets.

No DEC's in this clutch then, too bad! The last one turns out to be a pied too, we'll see what kind, markings are scarce, the same type as the first chick has. Possibly due to that one day lack of proper feeding also pigment must have arrived a little late, I was actually already hoping for this one to be a DEC - that would have once and for all made it sure that the cock is a dutch pied - but, alas! Well, I'm sure the chicks will be pretty anyhow Now we'll just wait for them to grow and get some more feathers, or feathers to begin with in the first place.

Thank you GenericBlue So here's a fresh photo, I thought some of you might be able to say something more of the eldest one being an opaline or not. The colour of the chick is most likely grey, it is hard to distinguish even from the tail side, but as far as I can see, it seems not to be an opaline, what do you think? Still it has white down, so this one then, if not an opaline, would be a dutch pied and not recessive This link will take you to a bigger picture. The second chick is normal in appearance, sky blue, it seemed, and also carrying white down. So we'll see about it later, it's yet hard to tell if it's an opaline or not, but it should be easier to tell earlier, than from a grey opaline. Third one has been developing pigment quite faintly I even thought it had a pied spot on his head, but there's pigmented feathers coming out too - very little - but some. Fourth one is small and pink, it was always the darkest in colour of them all, no pigment yet, it's now 8 days old. And here's the proud hen, you hadn't gotten a picture of her yet (and as for the cere, she doesn't get it properly brown):

One cup per chick sounds big for me too (though in europe we use desilitres), if you use the same cups as in u.s. I don't actually measure the food the birds get, in any situation. I fill the containers everyday and the breeding pair has two big bowls to eat from and as I say, they're not empty when I fill them. I usually just blow away the shells and use the remaining food again, if theirs a lot. And when breeding in the first place, I use a lot of fresh and soft food, like soaked oat, quinoa, egg, bread crumb, rice etc. mixed with carrot, cucumber, apple... So naturally they eat less seed than on a normal diet. Millet is another I use for the breeding pair quite often as they do not tend to get fat on it But I think feeding is always a good subject when it comes to breeding, it is the most important thing to make the whole thing work. Kids seem to be growing nicely now, all of them getting food on their own and the papi has started feeding too No new pics as they still look a lot the same and my camera is old and tricky to get good pics on moving little things!

It seems that the second and third chick have normal wing markings, fourth one seems to have a very bright orange beak, so I'm hoping for another pied there, even though I cannot see any pigment yet. All of the three eldest have white down, but alas, the hen is opaline and the cock might be carrying it too, so there's nothing that this will tell us, only that those chicks are opalines or dutch pieds. Or both. I'll post pics again when I take some. So the mutatios could be following: 1. Grey pied 2. Blue normal 3. Normal 4. Pied

Thanks for the reply, I do have the feeding part in order they get plenty of seed in several containers, and they never get empty before I put new. They also get egg and bread crumb mixed with water as well as different kinds of vegetable and fruit. Naturally blocks of iodine and calcium are available too.. not sure how they're to be written in english All the other chicks were very well fed with fullest crops, except for the smallest one. But as I said, after a little while getting to be by itself with the hen she fed also her properly. So I'm happy now... Hope I won't have to interfere again.

Now I'm facing some trouble, as the youngest of them isn't getting any food. I noticed it already yesterday, but was hesitating to act, I was hoping maybe the hen would start feeding it again eventually. Well today the situation was worse so I took 3 of them eldest out in another box and left the youngest one alone. It's maybe the size of a 2-3 days old and is now 5 days so she's been starving for a while... The problem is due for the age difference as the 2 first ones were hatched 23rd and 25th, 27th was empty and the third one hatched a little earlier (at night) on the 1st of March and now the smallest one on the 3rd in the evening. So the bigger ones naturally get more to eat... Well. Now I can actually hear some very nice sounds of feeding from the nest, so it seems the smallest is finally getting some serious feeding too EDIT: I just checked and yes, crop full of soft food I tipped all the rest back in too. I was wondering, if I have to do this more often, what kind of time can you keep the others away from the nest??

Thank you for all your replies and thank you RIP for saving me from explaining it all over again.. I'm really not near that accurate what comes to genetics. I did wish for this debate on the other thread about him and his mutation on the genetics and mutations area and only to concentrate on the chicks and outcome here... but I guess it won't matter letting it come out here too, what a complicated odd bird he actually is! As to what K & M wondered about him being a clearflight and a recessive both, visually, well, that would mean him being a dark eyed clear and that doesn't work out either, does it But, I'll be posting pics of the chicks later on, there are after all 4 chicks to reveal more about him and his mutation.

Lovely recessive pieds you got there K&M The only thing with this pied cock is that he has iris rings, maybe the picture was bad, here's another one: The fact that he has pink cere might be because he's split recessive, this I've only been told, or then it's just some treat this cock has, which he ought not to. Anyway, recessive pieds do not have iris rings never, however pieds can occasionally have pigment abnormalities, such as this one having pink cere. But as I said, these are all only guesses, he's possibly a dutch pied, because he's not a typical example of any pied mutation and dutch pieds are known to have great variation within the mutation. All I'm sure of, is that he's pied, and that's what makes this pairing so interesting too

I find it so exciting to follow these kids growing up, I thought some of you might too The case is about a skyblue pied cock I've been asking questions about for ages and final conclusion now is that he is possibly a dutch pied split recessive pied. He's bred once before, with a dominant pied hen, that was at time I had no idea of his piedness, I thought he might be a combination pied of dominant and recessive, so I accidentally mixed those two mutations and the outcome is most likely something in between, though the chick ended up looking a lot like his father. Anyway, this time the cock has been paired with a grey green opaline, split recessive pied hen. Only mistake here is that the hen is opaline and dutch pied can have "frosting" which can be accidentally mixed with opaline, but I hope my cock won't be giving this frosting to any of his chicks. Other thing with opaline is that the chicks have white down and also the dutch pieds have white down, so that won't be telling me much when the chicks are at this age. The cock I think, is split opaline also, hard to tell from that one offspring only. Here's the cock: So if the cock is indeed a dutch pied split recessive the outcome could be following: 12,5% Dutch pied and Recessive pied combination i.e. Dark eyed clear 25% Dutch pied split Recessive pied 12,5 Dutch pied 12,5% Recessive pied 25% Normal split Recessive pied 12,5% Normal Otherwise, well, the outcome could be anything. This far one of the chicks is indeed a pied, markings situated a lot like his father has. Second one seems to be having normal pigmentation and the youngest too are too young to be told anything about (6 and 4 days old)

I've got a clutch of 4 chicks in the nest. Fourth and last one hatched just a moment ago and I noticed this one having very deep dark eyes compared to the others. I even thought earlier if some of the others were cinnamons having not so black eyes, but I checked some cinnamon chick eye colours from photos and these had not any red to be seen, only "blackish". But the last one now had very black eyes. I wonder if anyone has experience on DEC and rec. pied chicks eye colour, do they differ from normal as very young? I know rec. pieds at least have that reddish tinge in their eyes even as they grow up, but I've never seen a DEC. Reason to believe any res. pieds or DEC to be in the nest is that the cock is possibly a dutch/clearflight split rec. pied and the hen is normal split recessive pied. Thanks for any answers.

The chicks gonna look funny when it grows up but at least one can tell it's a pied! Worse even, if it would just look like the mother Dutch pied or clearflight, I guess they're the same basically, or at least both can produce a iDEC with a recessive pied if split for rec.pied. But in this case I'd say rather these to be dutch pieds, just because they don't have clear flights, lol. I just think dutch pied gives a lot more space for the variety than clearflight... okay, but someone else might be able to say more on this subject. I thought I did see iris rings on Asia and as her mother was a clearflight/ dutch pied, most likely so is Asia and this chick, or what do you think? It is after all a dominant treat and as I said earlier, dutch pied can appear to be a perfectly normal bird, with only the slightest hints to pied if even that.