Chrysocome

Agree with above. If they were blood feathers you would know about it! Blood feathers look like a feather shaft filled with blood, they don't have a vane (flat sail bit) yet. They are short, very soft and usually well hidden. If they are bent they bleed everywhere and don't stop until you pull them out, much the same way that he has pulled his mature tail feathers out. He will be fine. A bit sore perhaps, and he will look a little shorter than usual, but they will grow back eventually

This sounds like normal "new budgie behaviour" to me. Put yourself in his situation: you've been taken away from your flock - all the individuals you've known all your life, the noise, the routine, the company, and all this space to move around in - and placed in a completely new, completely strange environment, both inside the cage and outside. Silent, smaller than he has probably ever known, everything completely new, from colour to size to texture. Is that water dish the corner going to attack? Is the material on the floor dangerous? His instinct is to sit very, very still, just in case anything inside the cage is going to swoop out and eat him if they can see him. A few days later, he works out that nothing in the cage is dangerous, and later figures out nothing immediately outside the cage is dangerous either. So now he kicks into phase 2 of budgie breaking-in behaviour: Escape! This is not fear, but an instinct to find the flock again. Budgies are not programmed to be alone. He's trying to find every single nook and cranny, test every bar, dig under everything, to try and get out so he can find his flock again. As far as he's concerned you're a big scary moving object, he doesn't see you as his flock mate yet. He thinks he is alone and he's going to do what he can to get back to other budgies. Almost every new budgie follows this basic pattern (a silent, subdued phase followed by escape mode). You should have seen the acrobatics my Squee was doing! Going upside down, doing flips, hanging, digging and doing such incredible manevoures that sometimes I was afraid she would hurt herself. But as time went by, she settled, and so will he. They learn that this is the new situation, and if you are patient and teach him that you're not a big predator, he will eventually accept you as his flock. Now is a time to start teaching him this. This is why I advise against putting your hand in and handling him until he has settled down - at the moment he's so fixated on getting away that a big hand coming towards him will kick in that predator-prey fear instinct. Even if you're showing him that you're not hurting him, the mere image of a giant hand bigger than him is enough of a negative thing to decrease his trust. One more thing to remember is that we should give them a reason to go on our fingers. To start with, they go on the finger because they're too scared to know anything else. After a few days to weeks, they will twig that they don't have to go on the finger (which they're still a little afraid of) and choose not to. They will keep choosing not to go on the finger (think from his perspective: why would he want to if he sees no reason for it? The finger will just take move and take him somewhere he probably doesn't want to be). Instead of forcing him to be your friend by putting him on your finger, give him a reason, a choice and a good reward for doing it. But more on that later. As others have said, we can tell you more about taming later on. For now rest assured that this is normal. Keep his cage covered on at least two sides, move slowly and talk quietly to him, and show him that though yes you are twenty times his size, you're not going to do anything to freak him out. Take it easy and be patient, in the end it is much more rewarding. I find the bond is so much stronger and more rewarding if they come to you out of choice and trust, rather than by force. Take a step back and let him come to you when he is ready. It may take a longer time than you might like, but in the end - for the very many years to come - it is worth it.

Glad to hear it all went well. I take my separation-anxiety prone conure with me everywhere, but it's a nightmare sometimes because he gets car sick! I mean, I put him in the car and haven't even started the engine, and he'll start throwing up. Poor little bird. My dear budgies on the other hand aren't phased in the slightest, they seem to enjoy the ride!

From experience, I find my budgies throw out the linseed (literally, I find it whole on the floor of the cage). The rapeseed is too small/hard for them so they leave that untouched in their seed dish (we call it one of the "filler seeds" in supermarket brands). I've never tried niger seed so I can't comment on that.

Bad weather can exacerbate a pre-existing problem, because they have to devote some extra energy to keeping warm as well as fighting whatever it is that's making them sick. The trouble with bird medicine is that so many things are caused by the same signs. I'm sorry I missed the vomiting in the first post, which seems to now be a major symptom. Does he get free flight time outside of cage and does he have any access to metals such as zinc or lead in or outside his cage? I ask because this can make them vomit, look very sick and make green poops. A bit of peanut butter can help bind this in his gut, depending on how big the piece is. Some other things that cause vomiting are infectious agents, one is an organism called trichomonas (canker) and the other is a fungus called megabacteria. The latter is affected by mild acids. You can try adding a few drops of raspberry cordial to a water source for a little while (stop the sugar water for a day since this has sugar in it). If you don't have it available try apple cider vinegar (but this probably doesn't have sugar in it, so you'll need to put the normal water in at the same time, or only do it for a short time). This recipe is a preventative not a cure once it has settled in, but it might help a little bit. I don't know what else can be done at home, what I've listed are little things that can help (not cure). As others have said earlier, it could be many things and without a vet's diagnosis it is hit and miss. I've replied to your PM.

I personally feel that simply being covered while in a bright or noisy room is really disturbing for them and does not encourage them to sleep, I think it's more stressful than anything. As opposed to the hours of light affecting their hormones I think it is the hours of dark, and I mean darker than just having a cover on. It's not natural for them to be in a semi-dark place while there is a lot of noise and movement going on around them especially if they are tame and can hear their owner (their "mate") but can't find/see them. I agree that it is a good idea to move him to a different room, particularly where it is quieter and it can be much darker.

Agree with above, make sure it's swift and you hold both the nail and toe firmly so you don't make any more damage than is necessary. After you put the powder on, grab a tissue and press firmly, holding the edges of the wound together for about two minutes without moving the tissue to check if it's bleeding (you'll dislodge the clot if it does). After two minutes you can have a look, repeat the holding for two minutes if it's still bleeding. Good luck! Her toenail probably won't grow back but she has three others on the foot to help her get around.

Irene, where abouts are you in Canada? Just the town, you don't need to say your address. If you're not comfortable sharing your location in public you can PM me. I am on many boards and support groups and a lot of them are based in North America with lots of good people. One in particular I am thinking will help you though I think it violates the rules of this board for me to post it on here. Yes there are foster services and people willing to look after a sick bird knowing your situation. I can ask some peopel I know over there and see if any of them are near you. Yes corn flakes are fine, at this stage any food is good for him (as long as it's not on the dangerous foods list of course), be sensible about this of course (no dairy foods, nothing high in fat or salt) - cooked pasta or rice are options. You could put a pinch of sugar in one small water container for a bit of energy (only one source of water and make sure it's small since he might not like the taste, or he might like it too much and dehydrate himself. Make sure you throw it out after one day because it's ripe for bacterial/fungal growth). Alternatively see if he will lick a bit of honey off your finger or whatever food he's eating. I must remind you this is not ideal but if this is all you can do for now then it will help a little bit until he can get to a vet.

Hi Irene You are right, this is urgent indeed. Unfortunately what you have described is a very sick bird, and we can't tell you much more than that without seeing the bird or doing any tests. Budgies are prey animals, they try to disguise their illness because in the wild a sick looking animal is an easy meal for a predator. When your budgie picks at the seeds he is pretending that he is eating so a predator won't notice he feels sick. So when he can't even pretend he's lively (you notice he is sleeping all day and not eating) it means he is quite sick indeed. He is losing weight because he is not eating very much. A bird's normal dropping is made up of three parts - the dark solid bit (faeces), the liquid bit (urine) and a white portion (urates, a by product of urine and faeces). So when he isn't eating, he isn't forming the solid bit and all you get is urine, you might be noticing it more now because of this. What you read about thirst due to watery droppings can be true, but there is always a question of what came first (is he making more urine because he's drinking more, or is he drinking more because he is making more urine?). Green droppings can be due to starvation, gut problems or liver problems. Staining of feathers above the cere usually (but not always) refers to some kind of respiratory involvement. This can suggest chlamydia (psittacosis) which is very common in budgies. Chlamydia also affects the liver so this is also a possibility. This may also give him a temperature, although birds normally have warm feet, their body temperature is somewhere around 40-44 degrees celsius unlike us (37C). Diet is also a possibility, liver dysfunction due to an all seed diet is also very common in budgies. As mentioned earlier this gives them green droppings, they lose weight because they can't digest their food. They usually also have beak and claw abnormalities, sometimes bleeding disorders. They also usually start out being fat/obese before they start to lose weight like this. As you can see it can be a lot of things and diagnosing over the internet based on what you observe and describe is very difficult. Even in a vet visit we would need to do some tests to differentiate these possibilities. I really do urge you to have an avian vet visit as you have a very sick bird. For now you must support him symptomatically, set up a hospital cage with a warm lamp over him, with a gradient so he can get away if he's too warm. Have plenty of water available. I am worried that since he is not eating very much he may be wasting away. You really need to get food into him, you may have to learn how to crop feed. I hope this helps and please keep us updated.

The ones Pearce mentioned are named rapeseed and sorghum (also called milo). Rapeseed picture Sorghum/milo picture Sorghum is way too hard and rapeseed is way too small. No name brands are typically packed with this stuff.

So sorry to hear about Cheeky. Was this an avian vet you took him to? What tests were done and which antibiotics did they give him? Pet birds are quite commonly diagnosed with liver disease, most often due to an all seed diet. What is his normal diet? The liver is responsible for blood clotting, digesting food, growth of beak and nails and for getting rid of byproducts of blood. At first the birds are usually overweight but then they get thinner as they are no longer digesting properly. They start clotting inappropriately (bleeding, or clotting in the wrong place). When the blood byproducts can't go to the right place they end up in the urate of their poo, staining the normally white solid portion green or yellow. The nails and beak will often grow abnormally. Does your bird show any of these signs? From what you have described, all I can tell you is that you have a sick bird, as they often look like this- fluffed, lethargic, don't want to eat, often runny poo. (But I can't see the bird or do any tests for you, and I don't know what specific tests the vet did). Regardless of cause, I think you need to set up hospital conditions for Cheeky - keep him warm with plenty of water and food available. It is possible he's pretending to eat when he pecks at the food, to fool you (birds are prey animals, they try to appear healthy so that predators don't pick them off), but he feels too sick to actually get much of it down. He is obviously getting something to be still getting on, but it may not be enough to keep him going for an extended time. You really need to get food into him, any way you can. You may have to learn to crop feed if you feel he isn't eating enough. If he hasn't been drinking you may need to very slowly put one drop of water at a time into his beak. Now, "liver disease" is not a specific diagnosis. There are many causes of liver diseases, including bacteria (such as Chlamydia) and diet. The most common one as I mentioned is all-seed diet and it causes a condition called "fatty liver". I do not mean to imply you are not feeding a good diet as I don't know what you feed for the moment, but it is the most common and I'll go ahead and talk about it so you don't have to wait to get a reply. There is no specific treatment for fatty liver other than giving him good vitamins and nutrition, keeping him warm and hydrated, to support the entire body while the liver recovers. This is a slow process. Many avian vets are now suggesting the use of milk thistle to help support the liver, same as in people. It certainly does no harm and it might be worth trying to get him to eat some. A common bacterial cause of liver disease would be Chlamydia or psittacosis, although it usually produces some respiratory signs as well such as sneezing or runny eyes. This would be treated with antibiotics, for Chlamydia particularly doxycycline is used. There are other bacteria that can cause liver disease, so they may have used a broad spectrum antibiotic for Cheeky.

Hey guys, Semester 8 has begun. Yes, I passed! With a shiny high distinction for Birds. From now on, I'm officially a trainee veterinarian. The thrill at hearing that when I'm introduced to a client hasn't quite worn off yet. Especially when they call me Doctor! I'm now doing work placements from here on out until the Grand Finals/Big Orals in November and then, well, beyond that.. well, let's concentrate on passing first. I'm currently having a blast at Canterbury Veterinary Clinic, which is officially my "dogs and cats" block but unofficially it's to satisfy my "ferrets, rabbits, snakes and turtles" needs. Drop by and visit Here's where I'll be in the next few months: * 20/07/09: Canterbury Veterinary Clinic (Surrey Hills) * 10/08/09: UoM Clinical Pathology elective (Werribee) * 31/08/09: Brisbane Birds and Exotics Service/Brisbane Bird Vet (Macgregor and Chermside) * 12/10/09: Station St Veterinary Clinic (Koo Wee Rup) I'll try to update when I can. The end is so close... Mixed Practice - now in its final season!

Oh hun I'm so sorry for your loss. No one can predict when this happens or why. You had the very best intentions in mind for her and what happened was beyond yours (or anyone's) control. ((((hugs))) xoxox

Ring constriction is fairly common, when a bit of muck get stucks between the ring and the foot. Blood and lymph cannot flow past that point so the foot swells up and bruises, further making the ring constrict around the leg. Deprived of a blood supply the foot starts to die unless the ring is removed. I'm so pleased to hear that it went well Matt, and hope she continues to go well. I'd like to post a word of caution to anyone else who is going to attempt to cut off a ring. I advise extreme caution if doing it at home and would urge people to go to a vet instead, especially if the ring has been there for a few days or the foot looks like it might have died. There are several reasons for this. First, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, there is the risk of hurting the bird with the cutters when there was previously no wound there, especially if the bird is freaking out. One can be careful about that - but the more threatening reason is that sometimes the ring has caused so much pressure that the underlying tissue has died, eroding down to the major blood vessel in the leg. When you remove the ring, the severed blood vessel is exposed and the bird can bleed out very fast and die. A second warning is that there may be infection brewing in the foot below the ring which may release toxins back into the bloodstream once the ring is removed. One more thing to note, especially with steel rings, is that when you cut into it the ring can warp and dig/tighten into the skin, causing further damage, and the sharp cut ends can also lacerate the leg when you try to bend or manipulate it. Always cut on both sides. At some bird clinics, they actually anaesthetise the bird then use a small saw/drill tool on each side to avoid causing the ring to warp. I know (and am glad for Matt and his budgie) that it worked out this time, but always bear these things in mind if you are thinking about doing it at home.

I agree with the size difference and cross infections. Even if the chickens are friendly most of the time, all it takes is a warning peck when it's in a bad mood one day and the budgie can be injured badly, even if it was not the chicken's intention. If you were to do it, make sure they have enough space. Chickens have a (sometimes fierce) heirachy system and need a lot of space between them to stop bullying/injury, and the budgies must be able to escape easily. Another concern is that chicken faeces that might accidentally be ingested by the budgies as they forage on the ground. Chickens can make a huge mess and lower the general hygiene in the aviary. The chickens can handle budgie bacteria, but chickens have (normal) gut bacteria that are harmful to budgies. Chickens can also handle having a higher worm burden than budgies, so they can carry it without looking infected whereas it would be very harmful to budgies. If you were to do it, you would need to quarantine and treat your chickens before putting them in the aviary, and step up with the cleaning. However, treating them does nothing for the normal bacteria in chickens that are harmful to budgies. Regular cleaning will lower the risk but not eliminate it. So in my opinion: no, not worth it, because of the potential harm to the budgies.

Peanut Some of you know about Milly's obsession with... Cheek rubs! Squee's just a smart little thing, you can see the eagerness and intelligence in her eyes. She's always keen to learn new tricks and try new things. I've posted her clicker training endeavours in the training forum, she puts a ball in a cup in exchange for treats

How raspberry cordial and apple vinegar both work is that they are mild acids (citric acid and acetic acid), they lower the pH of the gut (making it more acidic) so that certain things especially fungi (like megabacteria) are less able to survive in it. I imagine raspberry vinegar would do the same thing since it would also be some form of mild acid, but I don't think that it would be better or worse than the others alone. I'm guessing it would cost a lot more, so maybe best stick with the others.

In Australia we tend to call them king quails, but they are also called Chinese painted and blue quails I've also heard them commonly being called button quails, but that technically refers to a different type of quail that looks similar.

I love quails, I had four Chinese painted (king) quails in my finch aviary before I had budgies. The only thing I can think of is that the budgies may have problems if a lot of quail poop comes into contact with their food or water, so make sure the quails can't easily access the budgie food and water. (Quails have a different normal bacteria load in their intestine, which is harmful to budgies if they get a high load of it in their intestines). One more thing to remember is that quails can hover, and will do so when they're frightened, so be careful with your toys and perches, make sure the quails can't easily hurt or entangle themselves if they're startled.

I agree with Elly. Budgies are still nearly wild creatures, and putting them in a domestic situation we shouldn't forget that they are haevily influenced by environmental stimuli. Through keeping budgies well, we unfortunately also place them in a situation where their brains tell them it is a great time for breeding: warm, plentiful food and water, good body condition, a territory for nesting. Obviously some of these we shouldn't change. But what can do is try to simulate other times of year so that she doesn't think she should be breeding. Things that indicate it is the right time for breeding: short nights, rainfall, lots of high energy readily available food and water, nesting material, presence of a nest, presence of a male. To help her think it is not breeding season, increase herr hours of dark (this means she actually sleeps, simply covering her in a noisy or bright room does not allow her to sleep). To prevent her from thinking she has a territory that is hers for nesting in, remove any nest she builds. Simulate the constantly changing environment she would experience in the wild while travelling/foraging: move the cage, move all her furniture (including toys and perches) around weekly. While it's great that she is eating well, it is extremely readily available, all she has to do is go down to the bowl and she has all the food she will ever need for the most nutritionally difficult task of her life (laying). Encourage captive foraging, if you look in our Food and Nutrition forum you will see some ideas for what that it is and how to do it - this will keep her busy and tell her that food isn't quite as plentiful. If she has bonded strongly to any of her toys, take it out, or at least rotate the toys as noted previously. Keep her busy by working on taming/training and try to involve more than one person, so she thinks she is in a flock all moving/foraging together, rather than bonded to one human (her mate). As you can see there are lots of things you can try. Hormones are a last resort when all else fails. Please let us know how you go, and keep us informed

I agree that she needs to see an avian vet asap. Aside from possibly being a broken leg, her joint could be infected. Since the blood can't get past the lump, her toes become swollen. Because she looks so outwardly sick, this might suggest that the infection could be spreading. It could have started from the leg and spread to other places causing heavy breathing and runny poos (the heavy breathing could be from pain alone if it's just a broken leg). Or, it could have started from somewhere else and spread to the leg. Any infection can continue to spread and affect her without an appropriate antibiotic. I really think you should see an avian vet as soon as you can.

Quick update at work - lol. It's very late in the week I know. But I'm at Knox bird clinic if anyone wants to drop by for a visit. This week only! :yes:

I'd like to see another photo as well, possibly from more of an angle so we can see more from the side? It does look a bit long to me. It is not normal for a bird to require beak trimming. The most common reasons budgies get long beaks are scaley face (he looks clear to me) and liver disease, most commonly from a high fat diet. Do you feed fruit and veggies regularly alongside the seed?

Wezzaman, firstly welcome to our forum (are you from Werribee?). I am very sorry for your loss. Other than what Kaz has said... how do the others look? Any green poops, tail bobbing, stained vent, stained forehead? If you pick them up, how does the breast bone feel - is it padded nicely by muscle or does it stick out like a knife? I ask for you to actually pick them up, because budgies can look marvellously well fleshed, then you pick them up and it's all just feathers they've made stand up to look normal. They are excellent at hiding their illnesses and will try to act normal until they can't any more and it's often too late. The size of the muscles on other side of the breast bone can tell you if it's been going on for a long time or if it was a sudden illness. Is there anything metal they could have chewed on that might be lead or zinc? Chewed paint off the cage? Any access to house plants? Has anything changed at all? Personally I would take the rest of your birds to an avian vet for a checkup, just to be sure, and to rule out something infectious. It is difficult to diagnose in retrospect without an animal in front of you. Some diseases such as megabacteria can be very insidious in budgies, they can carry it for a long time with no obvious changes until there is enough damage that they succumb to it.

I don't think it's a very good way of treating birds, myself. For one thing, I don't think ivermectin is water soluble so it wouldn't mix very well. The water would evaporate (increasing the concentration - it is inevitable that water evaporates over the day), some birds drink more than others (overdose), some don't drink at all (I've known budgies that refuse to touch water that tastes funny and they just extract water from their veggies to survive - budgies can go for weeks without drinking if they 'have' to, which puts stresses on their kidneys as well). I think it's a very rough and hazardous way of dosing birds because you have no idea how much each is getting - some might overdose, some might under dose and you have no way of knowing if it worked or if your birds are poisoning themselves. Essentially you're changing the concentration to something other than what the vet recommended. (I'm not sure how big the safety margin is for ivermectin, I have heard it is pretty safe, but it's difficult to predict accurately with little birds and their metabolism compared to mammals, which ivermectin is actually registered (and tested) for). Best bet is to be sure and know exactly what they are getting so you know it worked and they are not put in any unnecessary danger.