Seeings as everyones fired up already about certain topics I thought I'd throw another 'debate' into it.

Now I've noticed that if a bird has a 'headspot' it is automatically classed as a Dominant Pied,

Test number 1 was breeding a Dom Pied to a "headspot" dom pied and result was no pieds (2x) (you would think with 2 Dom pieds you would get at least 1 out of the matings)

 

I also purchased a large blue hen from a breeder (show) that specialises in Recessive/Danish pieds, she had a very large blue /danish pied cock (one of the best I've seen). She was using splits and all of her split rec pieds had headspots (small) the clutch my female came out of had 4 hens the same colour with headspots, the ones that didn't have them she didn't use as they were proven not to carry the gene.

*I spose the only way to test out the theory to THAT one is to breed her but am not a big fan of rec pieds- not quite sure why I got her but thought she would make a nice base bird when bred to a normal or other.

 

Any thought on this one??

Breeding 2 single factor dominant pieds you have 25% chance of a normal so this is why the first one happened. They are not double factor pieds only single factor, if they were 2 double factor pieds then you would have 100%.

 

Recessives don't have head spots like the dominants I don't believe if you have a picture that would be wonderful. As for coloring not sure what coloring you are speaking of.

 

2 blues will always make a blue based bird.

2 greens will produce greens unless they are both split for blue.

 

I hope I am on the right track with my info and I am sure if I am not someone with more genetics experience will let me know.

Colouring? mmm they were all blue but thats irrelevent I spose. Its just she had a few lines of Rec Pieds going that threw headspot splits that she was breeding together to produce really nice large rec pieds. Just wanted to know peoples thoughts on this as everyone says if there is a headspot it Has to be Dom Pied.

 

Not a real good picture but they all looked like this:

The blue ones is a dominant pied and the green one I can't see the back of it. Recessives pieds do not get iris rings and their coloring pattern is much different (Pretty in my siggy is a recessive pied) Merlin in my picture is a dominant pied.

 

There are 3 different types of dominant pieds http://www.geocities.com/budgie-place/p_co...ml#dominantpied.

 

Are these the birds in question? I just don't want to get confused or misunderstanding what you are asking :hap:

 

 

 

 

and here are examples of recessive http://www.geocities.com/budgie-place/p_co...l#recessivepied if she had recessives they would have looked like this

Edited October 31, 200618 yr by lovey

that is interesting where did you read that? I heard that for cockatiels but I never read that it applied to budgies :hap:, just making sure I am updated. I always read that you wouldn't know if they were split for recessive by an visual markings.

This is a very interesting statement from this site

 

The eye is the only special distinguishable feature of Recessive Pieds and the only way that one can identify them from lightly marked Dominant Pieds or Clearflights.

 

Yet at the 1987 BS World Show, two specimens of this variety exhibited in the champion section did not comply with that. A Recessive Pied Spangle was exhibited showing the white iris ring on both eyes. The bird was bred from a single factor Spangle/Recessive Pied hen to a Recessive Pied cock. The Spangle in turn was bred from a double factor Spangle cock with a Recessive Pied hen (all young being single factor Spangle/Recessive Pied). So why has the white iris ring appeared in that Recessive Pied Spangle? That is genetics for you. The other bird had all the appearance of a Dominant Pied in coloration, including the blue, and yet it had no white iris ring. One can debate the validity of both exhibits being exhibited in the Recessive Pied class. It would have been interesting to see the results of the progeny from those two birds in question if, hopefully, they could both be successfully mated that season. As the Spangle was mine I could have kept a close scrutiny on the results. Unfortunately, both birds failed to make it to the breeding pen.

 

I read I can't find about the spot (Laughing out loud) on the dominants/split to recessive.

 

You are right genetic is interesting and makes it for a great subject to talk about.

Lovey the birds parents were recessive not Dominant so even with the spot she can't be Dom. The lady was only breeding Recessives and had no Dominants at all in her aviaries.

The other bird with her is not related, just happened to be in the picture.

Haven't bred this bird yet, am treating her as a normal as I'm not breeding rec. pieds so cannot utilise the split. The breeding that I did was a Dom Pied to a normal green (with headspot but I don't recall her coming from Rec pied stock so I'll leave her be for now.)

 

Nyos- thats exactly what her birds show when they are split, the article was good. The main cock she had there was a evenly marked huge bird, she got out of showing a few years back but he would have been up there with the best I reckon.

Just wanted to bring this up and see if anyone could enlighten on this situation. Also haven't noticed this happening with 'pet' style birds more the larger show type.

interesting

I also purchased a large blue hen from a breeder (show) that specialises in Recessive/Danish pieds, she had a very large blue /danish pied cock (one of the best I've seen). She was using splits and all of her split rec pieds had headspots (small) the clutch my female came out of had 4 hens the same colour with headspots, the ones that didn't have them she didn't use as they were proven not to carry the gene.

*I spose the only way to test out the theory to THAT one is to breed her but am not a big fan of rec pieds- not quite sure why I got her but thought she would make a nice base bird when bred to a normal or other.

 

Any thought on this one??

 

This is indeed very interesting. But I'm just curious after reading your post, I got to thinking, did the clutch that you mentioned produced any 'classic looking recessive pied'.. by that I mean one like Lovey's gorgeous Pretty. Or was all the babies like the bird you showed in the picture.. normal marking but with the small headspot? just curious... trying to wrap my brain cells around it.. hehehe.

The little spot? I see budgies with those all the time at petstores. Theyre always with a crowd of recessives, same clutches I suppose.

 

To debate it you can have dominant and recessive pieds in the same clutch because both parents can be carrying the recessive pied gene. It is hard for me to agree that the 2 above in the pics are recessive pieds I haven't seen any website even the one you pointed to that suggests a recessive pied to look like this especially since they both have iris rings. . I understand that it is being said that both parents where recessives? Do have you have pics of the parents in this case to view or just the offspring?

Lovey, I dont think that they are saying that one with a headspot is a recessive pied, but rather a carrier for the recessive pied gene. I hope that makes sense.

okay, see I am getting all confused now but I have read that only to be in tiels not budgies and I didn't find it in the article that was posted that the spot means carrying a recessive gene.

 

It would be great with Hurdy, Daz, Nerwen would also see this post or even Rainbow as they have good genetic knowledge and breeding experience of the recessives. Even Karen aka Bubbles.

Lovey, I dont think that they are saying that one with a headspot is a recessive pied, but rather a carrier for the recessive pied gene. I hope that makes sense.

Does that explain the tiny headspots in the nesting box of Pina and Tiki ? ( Cheeta you said must have dom pied parents ? )

I was just thinking about that... if it is true then, it would means that these two little ones must be split to recessive.

okay, see I am getting all confused now but I have read that only to be in tiels not budgies and I didn't find it in the article that was posted that the spot means carrying a recessive gene.

 

To Bubbles, are one of their parents recessive? Because it looks like yours might develop a tiny spot.

Yes....one of the parents is recessive and grandparents were both recessives also :sad:

Here is Mum

and Dad

okay Confusion plus :(Laughing out loud):

 

 

Karen just to be sure Dad doesn't have a spot on his head like a lot of spangle can?

 

One must understand that this variety is not a sex-linked one, so the above expectations do not depend on which parent has which genotype, and the expectation applies to either sex. In some cases those Normal/Recessive Pieds "splits for convenience" show a small clear spot on the back of the head.

Lovey there is the paragraph about being split ( it too me a while to find it too)

 

Now Can I add in another spanner to the mix?? I re-read what my books states about headspot pieds and the author states that it might be a form of Sex-linked pied gene, but that a lot of reseach hasn't gone into it yet. Most times it is connected with another pie trait and not see as a different gene.

 

I'm still not sure what I think. Do you know if this lady had more hens with the trait than males? or more even?

okay Confusion plus

 

Karen just to be sure Dad doesn't have a spot on his head like a lot of spangle can?

No head spot on Tiki.

Wow I didn't think this would still be going!!

Basically just talking about the blue bird now (the green spangle in the picture just happened to be there when the picture was taken) yes out of her clutch there were 3 (4?) identicle hens with the spot also 'classic' looking recessive pieds. As far as I can remember there were more females than males with the spot that she was breeding. She had breeder box setups and pretty meticulous records so not much chance of 'something else' getting in.

Also not all the babies had spots, there were some recesive pieds, some split(spot) and some normal.

I actually was hoping she had a few Dom Pieds around as that is what I was after but as much as I looked there were none, so no mistaken identity birds were there either.

Thank you Nerwen (Laughing out loud) I read and read and missed it.

Very interesting topic indeed

okay so their might have been more hens with the spot than male, but can you recall (or find out) if it was the dad or the mum that had the spot or both? Or were they both recessives?

Resurfacing this for Neville and I lol...

 

So the SPOT on Merlin's head doesn't denote dominant pied at all am I correct on this?

I had a spangle once with a white spot on his head. And even Cosmo, who is a normal, looks like he has a spot because he has like two yellow feathers next to each other on the back of his head, but I assume that's just because he's still a patchy baby growing up.

 

Reading this thread was interesting. I've never had pieds at all. So I was just wondering -- is the spot on the head only relevant to pieds? Why was it on my spangle?

 

Ignore this if it's too far off topic.

I had a spangle once with a white spot on his head. And even Cosmo, who is a normal, looks like he has a spot because he has like two yellow feathers next to each other on the back of his head, but I assume that's just because he's still a patchy baby growing up.

 

Reading this thread was interesting. I've never had pieds at all. So I was just wondering -- is the spot on the head only relevant to pieds? Why was it on my spangle?

 

Ignore this if it's too far off topic.

Quite a few spangles have a patch on the back of their head. In the early days of spangle breeding dominant pieds were used, so the patch shows up every now and then.

Thank you Elly for bringing this thread foreward. It is very interesting. I also have noticed that many spangles have the spot, in some cases it could be a sign the the spangle is split for recessive pied

Seeings as the originals have gone I'll add a few recent ones.

Since this post I think people have come to accept this theory of split rec pied I know myself and another have proved it many times over which is a change from the first comments I got when first posting this theory in another thread before this one.

The original hen I posted abbout was put to a grey split rec pied cockbird (spot) and they did produce rec pieds.

 

Recent ones

Mother:

Son:

I have had 2 birds from this hen carry the spot out of about 6 clutches

 

Hey Elly I cant remember how big Merlins spot is?