RIPbudgies

Been awhile so I better let you guys know whats going on. 108 eggs laid from 17 pairs giving an average of 6.35 eggs per pair. I am happy with that. 80 Fertile 3 Broken 11 Addled 2 Undecided 17 Hatched with one death (pair 9).

I have read back through this thread again and I notice that you mentioned you were not sure of the fathe of some chicks produced by this hen. Now with that in mind it may be that the birds produced may not be from the same father. If the father is a DF of any yellowface he will produce 100% yellow young and similarly if he was a composite of two yellowface types only 100% yellowface young would be produced but of two different types and they would all be single factor yellowface. I reckon let them all feather up then take pics. If there is Yellowface Mutant 1 involved keep in mind that as babies in nest feather the yellow can be quite faint.

Graceful??????? really?????? if you call that graceful That's a freaking joke! You could of just said I was wrong did not have to put it as I know nothing I do NOT see suffusion a lot here, Maybe you guys in other countries do BUT here in my area NO it is NOT COMMON! its hardly ever seen Maybe we are better at breeding i don't know but I'm gone so it doesn't really matter and I've never been 100% wrong I work extremely hard to know the mutations, and the genetics and how they work If i'm not 100% sure I say so I use the words such as "think" "looks like" Etc etc etc so you all have fun and do what ever it is you do i'm sick of the degrading and rudeness Plus it takes forever to get a reply I'd hate to see when some one posts about a hurt bird and it takes them 2 weeks to get a response I have highlighted this part as in this case K&M you were 100% wrong! If you want to take up a challenge I can post some pics of birds that I bet you will not be able to identify. K&M if you knew GB you know that she was indeed being graceful. I tell you now that GB is dyslectic and also has a few other problem relating to an accident some years ago which affects her being able to express what she is thinking. She is also having a few personal issues to deal with right now. She has no malice towards you or anybody for that fact but gets extremely frustrated by being ignored when she knows she is right. GB did however bring up a vaild point about you knowledge. You say you have studies mutations for years and yet you seem to know little. If your knowledge is based only on your location then you cannot be all knowing. One must also be open to the possibilty of something you have never seen before. K&M we don't like to see people leave either. I think you were rather rude in saying it takes ages for people to reply to posts. This is not so. Most are replied to within 24 hours. Some people are very busy and don't have the time to been on the computor all day. Also the way the forum is set up is that if a post has not been answered it drops out of the 'new posts' or 'view new posts' or whatever it is (maybe a moderator can clarify) and can sometimes get forgotten. I know I keep meaning to reply to one of your post re me breeding teils. So whilst here I will tell you I have and have am getting back into it. I currently have a pair of Pearls (Opaline in budgie speak). The original bird is a DF Spangle and those of us who have been lucky enough to see them like this know it to be fact. There is variation in all mutations, just more extreme in some than others. My first Spangle was purchased in 1983 as a pet which subsequently set me down the path to the show world. I have seen the chages within the spangle over years, some for the better and some not. The bird from Poland is a DF Spangle and also a SF Yellowface Mutant 2 and although hard to say with certainty does look Opaline. The pix of the chicks as far as the Yellowface goes begs a question or two. The father is on the face of it either a DF Yellowface Mutant 2 or a DF Goldenface but blues are notorious for not getting good photos of so it is hard to tell for sure. The chicks however seem to show different levels of yellow which leads me to believe the father may be a composite of two different types of Yellowfaces. The chick with a greater amount of yellow would appear to be a SF Goldenface and the other a SF Yellowface Mutant 1. My question to the breeder would be: Did you breed any non Yellowfaced birds from this pairing?

I have in the past entered the National Show, mostly with the rarer varieties of course. Only one year we (was partnered back then) did not send birds as there was an outbreak of Newcastle Diesease (from memory) and we just didn't want to take the chance. That was our decision. Of the times birds have gone they travelled well and came back healthy and all bred. I would have had a couple of Clearwings this year to go but not being able to join a club at the time I had to get my rings direct from the manufacturer and so they are ineligable to go. Nubbly your post was well put and I totally agree that pretty much all that can be done is done to minimise risk. Showing of any livestock has its risks as soon as that livestock leaves the property. Perch sizes. From what I understand there was no real data put forth as to why larger perches were needed. The birds are bigger, are they really? Well in a way they are but a lot is feather. Skeletally how much change is there in the budgie. I dare say over the past 100+ years of domestication with the at least the last 50 - 70 years being for size we would have without a doubt increased the skeleton of the bird, but has it changed sufficiently to decrease the birds ability to perch correctly. Personally I would love to see the return to the smaller perch.

I read that first and was so inspired by your literary genius that I felt I had to offer up a peice of my own.

Just to put my two cents worth in. DF Spangles are quite capable of being extremely suffused. Early on in their development it was common to see them like the one that started this topic. People being people decided the suffusion can and was reduced to the show standard we have today. K&M I don't know what other forums you are on but I have looked at a few around the place. My main interest in them is usually always the genetics side of things and I can tell you there has been some really bad answers on those forums. Given some of your answers since joining BBC, I can say that although sometimes you have been 100% right you have at times been 100% wrong. GB settle petal or I'll put the leash on ya. Nubbs, bang on with the pix mate. Pawel, thanks for posting such a picture of a beautiful budgie.

Why is it when a TV personality mentions something like the wing markings of the early Clearwings and Greywings being similar everybody listens! I have been trying to get this across for years yet get ignored. Don Burke, great bloke no doubt, but he does have a tendancy to go off on tangents in his articles. I have both a first and second edition of Neville Cayley's book. I have also been lucky enough to see an actual painting of his which resides with a breeder in Perth. As for the title of his article "The world's first Cleabodies", what he is in effect talking about is the bird now know in Australia as the 'Darkwing' of which I have bred. Didn't I read somewhere that Don himself advocates the Clearwing should have clean wings! Yet conceedes in this article that they orignally did not. I have been super busy lately but if I get a chance I will scan the plates in the book and post in this topic.

Need pix to be clearer and closer but it is looking like a Recessive Pied Spangle Opaline.

So okay as of 8th May 2011 I have 40 eggs. Pair 18 just not gonna work due to set up and location so now that has been dropped of the list leaving 17 pairs. Lost the hen from Pair 12 so replaced her with his daughter so it now reads as: Pair 12: Cinnamon Dilute Grey(sf) Green x Cinnamon Dilute Grey(sf) Green Doubling up of the Grey factor is not really a good idea for Black Eye Self production but the Grey factor does change the structure of the feather which helps to reduce the yellow somewhat and also goes a fair way to reducing the cheek patch to a more white appearance as required in the standard so this pairing will be a bit experimental. Being a father, daughter pairing I am hoping that a certain amount of alleles will be common in regards to obtaining a more yellow bird. Any birds from this pairing use in the furture will need to be paired to non Grey factor birds as it will not be known which, if any, are double factor Grey.

Spangle Opaline Light Green. My first thought was Mulley but couldn't remember the partners name.

Birds can present similar symptoms to a wide variety of ailments. Without proper clinical evidence it is hard to find a cause and therefore a cure.

Sorry if my reply made it sound like I was a bit angy as I was not. Just straightening a myth. Glad you have posted such a topic of discussion. I am enjoying it even I am busy at the moment so cannot have as much input as I would like. I would say though as far genomics is concerned, it really is a great tool within industries were the genome has been sequenced such as cattle, horses and chickens. These are industries worths millions of dollars, so to maximise the potential of the products make perfect sense.

No, I have not taken pics as I have not had time. I have paired these up over a week amongst trying to doing other stuff around the place. I will see how I go about getting pix. The hen in the first pairing if anybody remembers was a hen I posted about and named her Jewel. Have no idea where the thread is though.

I am so glad it wasn't just me I'm pretty used to it now but at first I kept thinking it was on my monitor not IN my monitor LOL I've had a short look around The Myth page - Not so much correct - of course this is mainly in cockatiels*but i took it as they were referring to all birds not a specif one * BUT it is TRUE if you breed visually same mutations in a cockatiel you do end up with Smaller birds,some have health issues as well, if you breed two visual Lutinos together You get the notorious "lutino bald spot" NO show person or good breeder wants on their Lutino cockatiel and that Lutino bald spot Can get very large and they (reputable cockatiel breeders) have worked hard to get it out of the lutino's but other breeders who don't research have put it back in If you wish to apply the logic of breeding the same cockatiel mutations together which according to your un-scientific point of view then you must apply the same logic to any bird. It is pure an simple a myth at it's basic form. There have been mutations that are linked to various other mutations. Over time such linkages usually become unlinked. Size is controlled by many genes. The so called bald spot is controlled like any other trait. It is true that it occurs in Lutino cockatiels. If two Lutinos are carrying this trait then yes they can produce birds with it but it is not a reason not to pair two Lutinos together. As long as you keep adequate records and know what you are doing then this trait will surface only occasionally. then i clicked on the mutation page They have Lutino being marked as a SEX LINKED RECESSIVE GENE in budgies Yes it is sex linked NO it is not recessive it does NOT take 2 INO budgies to make an Ino budgie same with Opaline and Pearl (For cockatiels) Ino is a recessive mutation and the allele is found on the sex chromosomes so it is a sex-linked recessive gene. they also label a white face lutino cockatiel as an ALBINO there is no such thing as an ALBINO cockatiel - Cockatiels do not have the blue mutation that makes up the Albino an "Albino" cockatiel is just a WHITE FACE LUTINO There most certainly is such a thing as an Albino cockatiel but is generally referred too as a Whitefaced Lutino. The Blue mutation is responsible for removing yellow family pigments and in combination with the Ino gene produces a Blue mutant. FYI there is also a Yellowface Mutant in cockatiels. and there are such things as Lethal mutations some consider the Crested budgie to be one The myth of a lethal gene in crested has been around since the mutation occured. I have never found any evidence to support this way of thinking. I do wonder however if the fanciers of the day thought there may be due to the lethal gene in Canaries when pairing crested birds together. Just as happens today it only takes one person of some influence to begin a myth and before you know it, the myth has taken on a life of it's own.

I have set up 18 pairs. I have moved the breeding room around a bit and will be setting up two more cages to round off with 20 breeding cages. Will add them when I have then sorted. So far all but one pair have been in the nest boxes so looking like a good start. So here are my pairings and why they are so. Enjoy and comment or ask questions. Pair 1: Danish Pied Dk Green/Cinn x Cinn Grey(sf) Green/Danish, Blue This is a father daughter pairing as I only have one visual Danish and although the gene pool will be close to start with it will be expanded upon later. Don't know if the cock is split for blue as last year he was paired to a double factored Grey Green. Pair 2: Opaline Sky x Opaline Cinnamon Lt Green Cock is the best Opaline in the place and although the hen has a short feather visually she was the only one to come from a place of good breeding practices (G&G) and so the only choice as a mate to increase my Opaline line. Pair 3: Lt Green/Blue x Lt Green Specifically to produce 100% Lt Green and if the hen is split Blue then Skys as well. This hen has failed to breed at two other attempts. This cock is more forward and may compel her to bred. Time will tell. Pair 4: Dilute Dk Green x Cinnamon Grey(sf) Green/Dilute The hen is a G&G bred bird and paired to a Flannagan cock last year produced a Dilute. Quite a surprise as it was a chance she could be. The cock is from a hen bred in South Aust and was used last year to a Clearwing Olive to upgrade and produce 100% Dk factor birds. Pair 5: Cinnamon Dk Green/Dilute x Grey(sf) Green/Dilute Both these birds share a common ancestor on the dam line. The sire line are unrelated. These birds are part of the Black Eye Self line but I do not refer to them as such. This pairing will produce Cinnamon hens some of which will be Dilute and some may carry the grey factor. All cocks produced will be Split for Cinnamon. Any visually normal birds may or may not be split for Dilute. I am looking to hopefully produce a few good BE hens from this pairing, all normals will be culled. Pair 6: Cinnamon Dk Green/Danish, Blue x Grey(sf) Green/Danish, Blue Brother sister pairing. This pair are the siblings of the hen and progeny of the cock in pair 1. Again close pairing but at this stage it is no problem. The dam of these two was a bird who produced better than herself. I am hoping these two have more of their mothers genetic makeup than the father. Pair 7 & 8: Both Clearwings that look Olive and paired to Cinnamon Light Green hens. These two cocks could be Dusk Dk Greens and one may even be a Violet Dk Green. In order to prove the Dusk theory they need to be paired to a no dark factor bird. I also need to start my line of Cinnamon Clearwings which I use in my BES breeding. Pair 9: Cinnamon Dilute Lt Green x Cinnamon Grey(sf) Green/Dilute These have a comman ancestor on the sire line. The cock is of good colour with only a small amount of suffusion. The hen although is Grey Green has a good depth of psittacine which is needed in BES. Pair 10: Goldenface(sf) Cobalt x Sky Blue Grand-father grand-daughter pairing on the sire line. Basically I have few options at present for my GF line as I lack qty in Blue series birds. The hen is smaller than I would have liked but hoping that the genes she carries have come down more from the sire line. Pair 11: Goldenface(sf) Coablt x Opaline Sky This cock produced a lovely Grey Hen paired to the mother of the Danish splits but was too young to use yet. This Opaline hen is a daughter of the cock from pair 2 out of a loaned hen with great feather and was the second best daughter produced. So hopeing here that the hen has some good genetics to add and hope I get a few GF's to go on with from this pairing. Pair 12: Cinnamon Dilute Grey(sf) Green x Cinnamon Dilute Lt Green/Dilute Grand-father grand-daughter pairing. This cock is 2004 bred and did not fill an egg last year. I was set to retire him but he was showing such interest this year I have given him a shot. He is by far the best BES in the place and I have paired him to his grand-daughter in the hope that the genetics behind the cock bird are strong enough and in enough quantity within the hen that I can get a couple of good BES on the perch. Cross your fingers folks. Pair 13: Spangle Cinnamon Grey Green x Spangle Opaline Grey Green Cock is a smashing G&G bred bird and the hen is from over east. Hoping they click and maybe get a few spangle df's. Pair 14: Sky/Dilute x Dilute Lt Green/Blue Ther hen last year was used to upgrade the Clearwing line and I subsequently found out she was split for blue. As I am rather fond of blue series Dilutes I am using this pairing to produce Sky Dilutes. Hoping the Flannagan cock bird produces better tham himself. Pair 15: Cinnamon Dilute Grey(sf) Green x Cinnamon Dilute Lt Green Brother Sister pairing of the best coloured birds in the BES line. This is a bit experimental this pairing. Pair 16: Lt Green/Clearwing, Blue x Clearwing Dk Green Last I bred some really good Clearwing splits so time to use this year with visuals to try and upgrade size. The hen was from a really clean albeit smaller pair of clearwings and of the three rounds produced she was the biggest but not the cleanest nor were her wings good shape so I have paired her to this cock with neat wings. Pair 17: Clearwing Violet(sf) Cobalt x Dk Green/Clearwing, Blue T2 Cock bird is rather clean, hen is not. Cock has neater wings, hen does not. As the hen is a split Blue Type 2 I have a 21% chance to produce Mauve and 3% chance for Olive. Pair 18: Cinnamon Sky Blue x Cinnamon Grey Green Not quite sure if this pairing will work in this box. It is not ideally set up in it's current location. They are the only pair that has not gone in the nest box.

I was not raising the deformity issue but rather addressing a post to which the this issue had be posed in the light that it always is, that being bad and negative and don't do it type stuff. Maybe read the whole thread to see what I was referring too. Budgeman I am well aquainted with the writings of Robertson. I have Budgerigar world issues from the beginning through to about 2002 from memory.

Dave inbreeding in itself is not the cause of deformities. Deformities can be appear in complety unrelated individuals. Cause of deformities are also not necessarily genetic but can be cause through error at any point in the creation of the organisim. The pairing of closely related individuals is required to increase potency of particular genetic traits. However having said that it can also produce traits which you are not after but you don't know what you are going to get untill you do it. Currently amongst the pairs I have started breeding for 2011 is the following closely related individuals. brother and sister (both are progeny of the father in the next pairing) daughter to father granddaughter to grandfather (Sire line)

I have reported the add to gumtree so will see what happens.

Cause I am short of time at the minute I have found a piece from an article on avian anatomy. Also a link to an article on Glass as a hazard for birds. The pics of the windows are so real that it is impossible for a bird not to think that they are flying into a nature scene. http://labanimals.awionline.org/pubs/Quarterly/04_53_4/534p4_5.htm "Since the neck forms an "S" curve, it protrudes forward in the front, above the level of the crop. Often, this may be mistaken for a tumor or abnormality in the neck, especially when the crop is empty and the bird is sitting comfortably. Because the neck has more vertebrae than a human's and mammal's, the avian neck is extremely flexible, mobile and strong. We've all seen how easily a owl can turn its head so much farther around than we can. When a bird is comfortably restrained by an avian vet, the head and/or neck is held. The neck is considered one of the strongest parts of a bird's body, and it is almost impossible to injure a bird by holding it by the neck (as long as the windpipe is not closed off), let alone break its neck, when it is properly restrained. Often, people think, when they pick up a limp, dead bird, that it must have broken its neck, because the neck is so limber. It rarely is the cause of death. Birds that fly into a window or other solid structure may die, often of a concussion or other trauma, but in all my years of practice, I have only seen two birds with fractures of the cervical vertebrae." Reference: 2006 Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.

How stupid was that? Forgetting the link. See what happens when you quickly post something just before flying out the door. http://www.birdscreen.com/PDF/Klem_AFO_Injuries1990.pdf

It is often posted on forums and regulary spoken about when birds having a 'night fright' or flying into windows and other objects about the home. However there is little evidence to support this. The avian neck is a highly mobile peice of equipment and a dead bird nearly always presnts with a floppy neck. This is quite normal. I done some digging around and came across some research to share with you good folks. There are some pics in this article shows birds with skulls exposed so if you are squeemish the pics are at the end of the article. Please enjoy.

Cooking oil will do the trick. It is cheap and readily available in the home. It works by suffocating the mites.

Looks like a nice size avairy. Good luck.

thank you for that rip next question was my out come for the breeding expectations correct i know you would know definitely @ k&m just you re-posted the exact link i posted with the exact infomation so seemed you did not read any off the other posts people on here have a habit of not reading everything from top to bottom and just answering the first question and skipping everything all others added or say this does my head just sometimes i wonder why i or others bother to try help we either get told we are wrong or the exact thing we say is said by another and our posts just passed by No GB, your first statement was correct. I feel that your wording was not read correctly for if it was then you would n't been deemed wrong. I too getting a bit peeved that people don't read all replys. Hence why I don't answer a lot of posts. If the correct answer has already been given then why bother parroting the same information. Example this thread the correct answer was given many times so I have just added extra info for the inquirer and all who wish to know. Here is a little bit more. It is my understanding from talking to breeders of Slates that the green series birds are also altered in colour but the visual 'slate' that is expected as per the name is truly seen on the blue series bird.