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What do i do now?!?

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Guest luvbudgies

I'm Just saying I dind't learn from a book when we started breeding budgies in my home. and since then I have been breeding them and all mine are going well. I never researched the bird or any of the birds we have before we got them. Yes they are living creatures but long ago when they were just starting to breed them they had no books or information to read up on. they had to learn first hand and become experienced that way. This is going back to when people discover the budgie in the wild. will you call them irresponsible that they didn't read up on the bird before sticking in a nest box and letting the birds raise a family. If you keep a record of the birds breeding you can learn for yourself.

 

Since I have bred the budgie I have discovered many things not from a book or from a web site but by observing my own budgies. Learning as I went and I'm still learning.

 

Besides baby birds don't need your help in raiseing them its all up to the parents. It is your responsibility to have feed and water available as always.

 

Some things you need to know is Gestation (10 days), Incubation (18-20 Days), weeks the chicks spend in the nest (4 to 6 weeks) and when they are ready to be one there own(8 weeks to be sure).

 

I have transfered a chick to another nest.

I have helped a chick hatch (Books say this is not advised) But the chick is doing great it is the youngest of 5 and I think is a cobalt spangle.

 

I know that mothers feed there babies on there backs as i observed the hen doing this.

 

Books say that cocks do not and rarely enter the nest. (My always have and help incubate the eggs sleep and feed the chicks with the hen inside the box. And at times he enters the next on his own with the chicks.

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Well i agree with gathering information first but i personally didn't. I've learned most of what i know about breeding budgies through experience except i can see why being able to see problems if they occur is necessary and if i was to start again i would have read up first. Having said that, no amount of research can prepare you for the actual experience...it's like saying "here's a book on how to ride a horse, read this cover to cover then jump on and go", the fact that you've learnt the theory doesn't necessarily mean it'll work or that you're any less likely to fall off or make a mistake. It comes with experience. That's my opinion anyway, somewhere between the two. :P

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Guest eterri

And all this time I thought I needed to research before breeding! Silly me, I'll just get a nest box and get started instead. :P

 

This is ridiculous. I'm not saying I fully disagree with your points but I find it really aggravating that anyone would "condone" such irresponsibility. I give up, next time someone asks about breeding I'll let you guys take over and tell them all they need is a box and the various other basics.

 

Maybe you did it fine without reading a book, that doesn't mean it's a good way to start. THAT was my point. Like I said before, budgies can survive in the conditions that most people think are okay but they don't thrive that way and it isn't the best way to do it. By sitting here saying "Well, I did okay without reading" you might as well be handing the inexperienced a free ticket to laziness and careless breeding without research.

 

I started out knowing nothing about budgies, I didn't do enough research at ALL but I am NOT going to sit here and say "Well, I didn't research my budgie at first and she didn't die or anything." Please remember that the things you say on this site in reference to another person's question are often going to help decide how they go about taking care of their pet. When someone comes here with a question they should really be given the information that is *best* for their pet, not the information that "worked for me..haven't lost one yet!"

 

Otherwise, I might as well just stop "preaching" on the proper way to get started breeding. As sad as it is, most people are going to take the easy way out. Many children come here asking for advice on breeding and they can't do it properly. Their parents may not even *want* them to! They probably don't have their own money for an avian vet and they probably haven't even planned on what to do with the chicks. Do a search for "Imotive" and check out his posts relating to well...everything. :D It's a prime example of what I'm trying to prevent.

 

But as long as there are people who support "learning as you go" and "learning by your mistakes" instead of emphasizing the proper research, I might as well keep my opinions to myself because doing it properly is much more difficult and those that aren't really ready to breed aren't going to bother when there is this other way.

 

And for the record, I am NOT saying that learning as you go or learning by your mistakes is wrong, it's actually, for the most part, inevitable. There will be things you can't learn by reading, it's true. But there are plenty of things that you can't learn without reading as well. How are you going to look at your budgie and determine what type of diet it needs to be on, for instance? "Oh no, Fluffy is looking a little calcium deficient today!"

 

I can't believe I'm even having this argument.

Edited by eterri

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This I have to disagree with. Breeding budgies carelessly is not feeding the adequte food and having food supplyed as they need it. breeding them more often then they should and not being able to suply from them. Breeding them right is not the quality of the bird or the colour or how experienced you are but of the helth and wellbeing of the birds themself. To have an adequte supply of food and water to keep the temperature right so they are not to cold or hot and to breed them so they are not bred more then what they should be. Breeding budgies right is not hard. Its hard only if you make it hard.

 

I think that basically the whole point is that if you didn't do any research whatsoever then you wouldn't know what the "adequate food" is.. You wouldn't know how often breeding them would be "more often than they should" Without finding out through some source of information you wouldn't know how to "temperature right so they are not to cold or hot"

 

And all this time I thought I needed to research before breeding! Silly me, I'll just get a nest box and get started instead.

 

How would you even know that you need a nestbox without doing any research?? ;)

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Guest Lin

Exactly ;)

Also, isn't that what makes humans different? we are able to learn from someone else, and therefore make less mistakes. Anyone who deliberately chooses not to find out as much as they can about any pet they have, whether they are breeding or not, is selfish and cruel to their animals

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Guest luvbudgies
Well i agree with gathering information first but i personally didn't. I've learned most of what i know about breeding budgies through experience

 

You will probebly find most people breeding any sort of bird probebly learnt by experience.

 

 

 

long ago when they were just starting to breed them they had no books or information to read up on. they had to learn first hand and become experienced that way. This is going back to when people discover the budgie in the wild. will you call them irresponsible that they didn't read up on the bird before sticking in a nest box and letting the birds raise a family. If you keep a record of the birds breeding you can learn for yourself.

 

These people had not experience of budgies or how to breed them when they were first discvered by the english when the came to the Australian shore the caught and studied probebly didn't know which was male or which was female bred them and whala. baby birdies. they would have studied and wrote down the information and then done more study they never read the book to say now brown cere is female and blue is male. the nest is boxes bla bla bla.

 

They experemented and found the information out them selves. then they put there practices into work and thats how they learnt.

 

I have 1 breeding book which I got only to see colouration of budgies and to see which was recessive or dominant. not on how to breed. I figered all that out myself by observing my own budgies.

 

I have a faerly tame hen, I know if she's happy, misserable, playful or angry just by observing her behaviour. Same with my baby birds I learn there personalities and go by the way they act.

 

I have spotted out birds that have become sick, not by reading a book and checking for those symptoms but by observing there behavouir. If the behavour changes then obviously there is something wrong.

 

I never knew what scaly face was until one of my birds come down with it, went to a bird shop explained the symptoms and got medication for it. did not read up on it.

 

And besides If I have a problem I go to where I brought the bird as I know the people and they help out. Like once this year my young hen had a fatty cyist. (Only common in older hens by the way) she is young even they thought it was a soft shelled egg but when I took her in the checked her out and she had a fatty cyist. They were even surprised to know that even young hens get them but it is very rare. Oh and did you know it takes 6 months for a fatty cyist to dissapear. Didn't have to read a book for that one either.

 

People have there own views and thoughts of things in life. weather it is reading information before doing it or going in blind and learning as you go. Some people are better at the hands on others at the theory. As Bea said

it's like saying "here's a book on how to ride a horse, read this cover to cover then jump on and go", the fact that you've learnt the theory doesn't necessarily mean it'll work or that you're any less likely to fall off or make a mistake. It comes with experience.

 

I did Agriculture in high school and we done more practicle with the animals then written or reading about them. I went in knowing nothing about cows, sheep, Chickens, beas or pigs and learnt over a period of 3 years on how to drench a sheep (worm the sheep through the mouth with a syringe.) The teacher never gave us a book and say 'read this then do as the book said' she gave us the syringe and said now get a sheep and drench it. I never knew how to make up cows milk for a young calf but I learnt by makeing it up for the cows and feeding them with it. (Do you know if you add calf milk to your hand and let the cow succle on yoour hand the roughness of the cows toughe will rub the dead skin away and you will be left with baby smooth hands. (okay maybe a little discusting to some) But I learnt that by exsperience.

 

What I'm trying to say is that some people suck at the reading theory and thrive at the hands on learn as you go theory and others are the other way around. If you feel you need to read a book before you breed go a head no one is stopping you. but if you feel you want to learn as you go. Go a head no one is stopping you. Do as you feel is best to you.

 

Yes I have a book on breeding budgies but I got that after I started breeding them for colours. I have a book on the Norwegian Elkhound but I got that the day we got the puppy. to read up on the evolution of the Elkhound (You know the dog dates back to 6000BC they were the viking dog)

 

If someone asks you for help I think the kindest thing is to give them as much information you know to get them on there way not tell them to buy a book and read it. If some one asked me for information on the elkhound or budgies I'll tell them as much as I know. not tell them to read a book.

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Guest Lin
I did Agriculture in high school and we done more practicle with the animals then written or reading about them. I went in knowing nothing about cows, sheep, Chickens, beas or pigs and learnt over a period of 3 years on how to drench a sheep (worm the sheep through the mouth with a syringe.) The teacher never gave us a book and say 'read this then do as the book said' she gave us the syringe and said now get a sheep and drench it. I never knew how to make up cows milk for a young calf but I learnt by makeing it up for the cows

But this isn't learning by your own experience - this is the same as, or better than reading a book, you are learning, under supervision. It's not you going out to a paddock unsupervised and learning not to stick the sheeps head in the water for 5 minutes by drowning a sheep first! You had a teacher there to gently point you in the right direction, who probably demonstrated to less capable students, and who only let you go as fast as you were capable of. I'm sure you didn't drench sheep on your first day! The teacher waited until you were ready for that experience, and then gently encouraged and taught in a hands on method. People breeding birds at home on their own is nothing like your experience in school.

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Guest luvbudgies

Not to be rude but you don't kow what my ag techer was like. we always had the littleest of supervision. like for such. the only thing we needed to get the honey out of the bee hive was our parents permission and protective clothing. she sent us in and told us to get the honey. she didn't supervise us or show us. like in year 8 when we started agricultuer we were asked to take the tractor around one by one with no way of how to run the thing. one again. agriculture is a hands on learn as you go. just like with the budgies you are working with live aninamls. weather its lots, little or no superviosin its all the same. But we had verry little to none as there were many animals and we had pigglets, lambs cows, chickens, sheep, bees and a pig that other students were attending to and she did not demonstrate it to us. told us to open the mouth and thats all the rest was up to us.

 

Its like someone telling you to stick a nest box in and see what happens.

 

Besides there is a way to keep a bird from breeding that is to collect the egg once its been laid, shake it and place it back in the nest box. and repeat till all eggs have been laid. she will sit on dud eggs until you want her to breed. anyway not all eggs will hatch.

 

But as I said befor. the first people to breed budgies did not learn from someone eles but themselves. So why can't others if they wnat to. It is not irresponsible.

 

 

(I a private place you don't need a licence to drive a small tractor)

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Guest eterri

Then, your ag teacher was irresponsible. B)

 

I think it's true you must give people as much information as you know BUT it's also important to urge them to learn on their own too. Learn by READING and talking to breeders. Not by throwing in a nest box to see what happens.

 

Do you also think it's okay to get a pet without doing any research and just "learn as you go?" There's no way you would know how big its cage needed to be, what it needed to eat or anything else for that matter. If you listened to the pet store and just picked up what you thought you was right for your bird you'd end up with a tiny cage, all seed diet, plastic perches, corn cob bedding, sandpaper perch covers, mite protector, and one very unhappy budgie.

 

Breeding is no different as far as that goes. To decide not to educate yourself is to decide to remain ignorant. The information is out there, we have it better than the first breeders did and guess what? Because of their mistakes, we have a responsibility to FIX the mistakes that were made by "learning as you go." This is what breeding is all about. And even if you're not committed to helping improve the species (though every breeder should strive to) you should at least be committed to doing things as best you can. There's NO way you can learn what you need to know by just doing it. You have to have some idea of what's going on or else you're pretty blind to the more complex aspects of breeding. To learn as you go is to just assume things are fine because the budgies are alive and eating and look okay. It's very irresponsible.

 

No one is saying that we shouldn't advise new breeders on what to do. What I am saying is that they also need to learn how to get prepared because that IS the first step of breeding! They should be pointed in the right direction, not handed a few paragraphs of incomplete information and told to go get some hands on experience. Unless YOU are going to be there next to them when something goes wrong it is wrong to let them go off "unarmed" so to speak. They're the ones who are going to have to deal with unexpected problems, not you. And the budgies are likely to be the ones who have to pay for those ridiculous *unnecessary* mistakes with their lives! Why would you not do everything possible to prevent this? We see it all the time! "My baby budgies beaks are deformed!" "My baby budgies' legs are spread out wrong!" "My baby budgies won't eat, how do I handfeed???!"

 

By the time they learn that the beak deformities aren't normal, it's too late to shape them correctly as they've hardened. (It's happened to a member here.) By that time the vet is needed but they had no idea budgies needed vets, let alone bird vets and "mom and dad" won't spend that much money on a cheap little bird. By the time they realize that splayed legs aren't normal, the bird is permanently handicapped. They have no idea how to set up a cage to make things easy for the baby, they won't take him to the vet, the parent birds stop feeding him and he starves to death. (It happened on an LJ community-I was livid- she had no clue the parents would stop feeding the baby *sob*.)

 

And what about the owner who doesn't know how to handfeed and has no one to show him/her? How about hands on then? How about asphyxiating the chick for a learning experience? Or maybe not knowing what a crop is and how often it needs to be filled? What if they have school and suddenly there's no one to give feedings and the chick starves because this would-be breeder had NO clue that things would be like this?

 

You tell me those things are "okay" and I'll stop arguing. I'll know that an animal's life isn't worth much to you and that it's useless to keep going back and forth about it.

Edited by eterri

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Guest luvbudgies

My first nest of budgies consisted on a normal healthy budgie, 1 with spred legs and 1 with french mult. the normal one was fine. we took the other 2 inside the house hand fend them and weaned them with not information on to how. the next day we took miss pred leged down to the birds show, not av ian vet and she said that she has a spred leged budgie which is 10 years old and that the best tamed pet budgies are those with spred legs and french mult. The 2 baby budgies stayed in the house, went into the front yard to play. followed us everywhere and did not depend on anyone for help There names were Buddy and Bluey. Bluey had french mult which eventually grew back. and Buddy had the spred legs. They were the best tame birds I have ever had. Besides a budgie with spred legs learns to adapt. She was strong and lert to stand with her disability and walk with her disability. She was just like a normal budgie.

 

You know what causes spred legs. It when the hen sits on the first chick and she sits to hevey thus causeing the pelvis to break and the legs spred.

 

So you see. You don't need to read about spred leg to prevent it as not always you can prevent theses things. For example reading about french mult will not prevent you babies coming out with french mult as it appears when the babies feather and leave the nest.

 

Plus my ag teacher was not irresponsible. she was the best and everyone loved agriculture. got A grades all the time and turned up early to class.

 

My point is reading reading a book does not make you a breeder. Its puting in a nest box and actually breeding the birds to make a breeder. As Bea has said before you can read a book cover to cover and you may not be good at it when you actually do it.

 

You need the practice and the practice is hands on.

 

I have reared a lot of chicks of mamy kninds of parrots. I raised a Redrump and many budgies. and a rosella. This is spoon feeding. then I went to the syringe feeding.

 

You don't need to physicly shove the syringe down into the crop to feed the bird. I won't I'm to scared to as I might hurst the baby so I push the food into the mouth and let the bird swallow the food. Just like there mother does.

 

At first the bird won't like it but after a while they will start to nag you for the food. The redrump after a few days saw the syringe and begged and ate from the syringe. we then went to spoon feed and we used a red spoon. when he saw that red spoon come out he begged and begged for the food.

 

we didn't really know what we were doing.

 

You don't need to read to learn how to do things.

 

That's all I'm trying to say.

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Guest eterri

Er. Did this vet bother to tell you that splay legs can be corrected or that "french molt" is contagious to other birds? :D

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Guest luvbudgies
"french molt" is contagious to other birds

 

Is not a contagious disease it is genetic. It is passed on through the genes of the parents to the young.

 

And by the time spred legs happened it was to late as the pelvis bone hardened. At a vet they would have just broken the neck and killed the bird saying it would have not been able to live a normal life but she did.

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Guest eterri

French molt/polyomavirus is contagious to other birds. Here is an article if you feel like reading up on it: http://www.birds-online.de/gesundheit/gesg...nzmauser_en.htm

 

If you had read books on breeding you would have known that splay legs was preventable and the budgie would have had a chance at living life without a handicap. I'm not saying its quality of life was bad, I'm aware that many birds live with this handicap happily. But it's better to prevent it than to have to let the bird deal with it, isn't it?

 

Also, I have never in my life heard of a vet that snapped birds' necks. Even if the vet was uneducated enough to believe splay legs warranted a death sentence, they usually humanely euthanize animals, not snap their necks.

 

These are prime examples of why research is important.

Edited by eterri

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Guest luvbudgies

I didn't say vet I said Bird shop. A shop specifically desingned for birds and there needs.

 

Maybe you should read the post more clearly to see what people are actually saying.

 

And if french mult is contagouse tell my why my young grey hen had french mult and was with the other birds and they never developed french mult.

 

 

 

It's the so-called Polyoma virus that causes BFD. Until today the way of infection with these viruses it is not known in all its details. Some guess that the infection happens in the egg already. But this allows only one conclusion: Old birds that are infected chronically with the Polyoma virus transmit the pathogenic germ to their offspring in the nest. Thus, it is wantonly negligent to breed budgies suffering from the French Molt! The pubescent infected birds would transmit the disease to their offspring and raise with an utmost probability a new generation of ill birds.

 

Where in this statement does it say it is passed on by bird to bird.

 

It says clearly it is passed on from parent to offspring. Just as I said erlier.

 

The second part of avian vets refuses this hypothesis and thinks to be able to prove it. On their opinion transmission between elder birds is not possible. Only young birds can be infected by their parents who have been infected by their parents and so on.

 

Not to sound harsh but shouldn't you consider reading the article properly to realy understand what it is saying.

 

It does not say it is a contagouise disease it says it is transmitted from parent to chick. Just like colour blindness is from parent to child. It is a disease which it transmitted through an infected gene.

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Guest eterri

In looking through links I only dug up what I've found before that covered the issue. Many will tell you that it is contagious to other birds. But you are right in that I definitely should have re-read the information before posting it. With that said, I'll let you do your own research, I'm sure you'll find what I'm talking about. (Unless you want me to dig up more links for you?)

 

That aside, any thoughts on my other points?

 

*Edit*

 

Here is information which is probably more up-to-date (and not translated from german :D)

 

Egg transmission is believed to occur since virus has been found in 1 day old budgerigars. Artificial incubation will not prevent or control disease spread in an aviary. Contaminated feces and aerosolized dust has been documented to transmit the virus. Chicks that have protective level of antibody from the yolk sac may infect susceptible chicks in the same nursery. Repeated finding of the virus in crop washings and feather samples from persistently infected adults that are clinically normal is responsible for continued spread of the virus in the aviary. Respiratory secretions have also shown virus so that breathing the air is all that is necessary in theory to transmit the disease. Virus shed from the kidney and reproductive tract are also probable.
http://www.cockatiels.org/articles/Diseases/polyoma.html

 

Affected birds may shed the virus intermittently. Parents may infect offspring through vertical transmission into the egg before laying, regurgitation of food, via exfoliated crop cells. Fostered eggs and chicks can pass the virus on to new parents. The virus can be shed in feather dust and transmitted though breathing the air near an infected pair. Studies suggest that the virus could be shed from all bodily functions, reproductive, gastrointestinal and renal functions, so the virus may appear in feces, urine, eggs and sperm. The virus may also be exhaled and in turn inhaled by others.
http://www.acstiels.com/Articles/Health/av...yoma_virus.html

 

The disease can spread from one bird to another via feather dust, feces, aerosols and parental feeding of chicks; direct contact or contact with infected environments (incubators, nest boxes)..
http://www.avianbiotech.com/Diseases/Polyoma.htm

 

Maybe the first website I linked to (in the post above) was speaking more specific to BFD? Anyhow, I do know that birds can carry the disease without showing symptoms. They would have to be tested (and retested) in order to confirm whether or not they had the disease.

 

Hopefully this info will make up for my lapse of brainpower. :wub:

Edited by eterri

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Guest luvbudgies

Hey eterri no hard feelings here. Don't want to sound like a know it all. But I was proving a point.

 

SORRY. Hope I din't hurt you.

 

As for Avian vets. There is none in this area and to take to another vet is more money then the bird is worth. So I take it to the bird shop specially designed to sell and care for birds. They have everything from Macaw o African Grey to budgie to finch. I had this one hen that was raising three babies and no book can prepare you for what I'm going to wirte here now.

 

In May 2005 My hen had three babies in the nest in the avery. she was in a fight with another hen and her uper mandible was torn right off. I took her down to the bird shop where they took her out back and euthonised her.

 

When I said that the spred legged hen if taken to a vet would have had her neck snaped I was infact talking about a normal vet for all animals. (Sorry I should have added that to my earlyer post).

 

But once again Sorry if I hurt your feelings. don't like hurting peoples feelings and I think we should bring this topic to an end and go by our instincts and breed the way we know best. Weather it is by reading a book on breeding or if it is diving into it blind and learning as you go.

 

See ya eterri.

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Guest eterri

My feelings weren't/aren't hurt. After getting into a much more personal, hostile argument elsewhere, this was a breath of fresh air. Disagreeing is no problem, it's not like you said "AHH YOU STUPID PLEASE BAN ME!! YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT!" :D

 

So... I can't agree with your viewpoint but there are no hard feelings.

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When I started, I didn't have any breeding birds just two pets. I then started to find out about what to do. Part of the reseach lead me here. I started to set up the aviary and the breeding box 4 months before I acually started to breed them. All that time finding out the right way and wrong way to do things and what to expect.

 

One thing to remember is that the budgies don't read. :P

Yes the book says 18 days incubation, but the budgies don't know that. Sometimes it is 19 and from when did thet really start incubating?

 

As Many will tell you. Get the knowledge first then start to breed.

 

You have made a ver important step and that is coming here. :P

Edited by daz

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Guest missy
I am so relieved i found a site with a related topic, because just a few days ago, my budgies decided to mate. The hen is around 19 months, and the male is about two years old. I have decided to go along with it, because i have the space, vet, and time. What makes a good nesting box? What do you put inside it? Should i give the hen a vitamin supplement or something? How long does incubation last for? Any behaviour i should expect? Pleeaasseee be kind and give me some advice. :angel1:

 

 

Hi my name is Brooke and i am 10 years old. my mum and us well w have budgies and this is our 5th time a egg is hatched. my mum bought some nesting stuff that you buy from the pet shop. Our birds well they had no behaviour but it depants how pretective the birds are. our birds took about a 3,4,5 weeks.

 

Always Missy (Brooke)

 

P.S some of our budgies well they well whenever the female layed and egg the other budgies killed the male or female that owned it. sometimes they peck thier eyes out. but i don't know if that happens with all budgies. my budgie Aussie got his eyes peckeds ou and we only had him for 3 weeks.

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Guest eterri

Brooke, you should send your mother to this website. It sounds like she (and those poor unfortunate budgies) could get a lot out of it.

 

Tell your mother that if she is going to breed, she should separate the breeding pairs to another cage to avoid fights.

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but you shouldn't start your learning curve with actuly breeding them!!

 

Go learn, read books, internet pages, ask other for advise, but never 'just' add a nest box and see whats happens!!

 

Claire

xXx

 

I'm sorry to say this Claire but how did you start. I am guessing you knew everything there was to breeding before hand...how did you learn to drive a car or drink from a cup or plait your own hair....

 

Animals ( including us humans) have built in maternial instincts And my dogs breed ( she was from a pound on death row and was meant to be desex) I had no idea about litters. some came out not breathing and you just kick in CPR mode... How can you shoot down ppl that want to learn....

That is just wrong....

I am learnig about breeding and I am trying to breed now I have never done it But how in the world would I ever learn .....

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Hiya Neat, you are stumbling across some interesting posts I have never read yet (which just goes to show how interested you are and how many posts you are reading, way to go). A lot of these posts go back years :)

 

Feathers.

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Hiya Neat, you are stumbling across some interesting posts I have never read yet (which just goes to show how interested you are and how many posts you are reading, way to go). A lot of these posts go back years :blush:

 

Feathers.

 

Yeah I seen that... It is a touchy subject...

I am really into the reding and finding out everything I can , I just don't like how ppl can be so judgmental ...

I worked out the search thing so I don't have to ask so many questions all the time....

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interesting post I even forgot about, I think the judgementalness (if there is such a word (Laughing out loud)) comes from people that also care a lot about the welfare of the budgies and the babies. It is clear to see that a lot of birds end up in homes and then in turn in rescues aka pounds such as dogs.

 

I know of a site that if you mention breeding or adopt from a pet store you are literally shot down because you decided not to adopt a rescue.

 

There is a lot of good information, you have to read through it and use what works for you and remember we only see what we read we really don't know the person on the other end.

 

What I found is a lot of people that tend to be say "anti" breeding are those who have been affected greatly or worked in a rescue situation and have seen some horrible sights with birds or animals in general.

 

Anyways I know that got off topic - hats off to you Neat :blush:

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