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New Member With Mutation Question

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I'll continue with my questions on this topic so I don't have to start a new one.


I've been breeding cockatiels small scale (well, big scale for my country) for 10 years or so, so I'm not exactly new to genetics per se... However I'm very new to budgies and with all the million color combinations I often find myself a bit lost. I also, apparently, have some sort of difficulties identifying different shades of colors (not just in birds, I notice this in other areas of life too) so I will probably never be able to see the difference between very similar mutations.


For now, I have three males and one female and will be getting two more girls soon. I'm planning to breed my single boys with the new girls someday and to calculate probable offspring colors (and to decide what kind of girls I want to get for the boys), I need to make sure of the colors instead of just guessing. :) The female that I already have has a small tumor and is probably very old so I won't be breeding her, but would like to know her color as well.


(Click for bigger pictures)



Elmo. I'm guessing single factor dominant pied (or Australian pied where I come from) and goldenface? Or if not GF then yellowface II? And the greenish shade probably means it's heterozygote GF or YC2 as some sites suggest?



Onni. Mauve and possibly violet? (Don't worry, he's not fat, just sitting very oddly..) I know that Onni's mom was violet (SF) and a friend of mine (not a budgie hobbyist) said she could definitely see a violet tint in him in sunlight. I'm probably getting a cobalt violet opaline girl for him. :)



Urmas. Definitely a cobalt, but also violet? Urmas is Onni's brother and therefore his mom was also violet.



Urmas again and his girlfriend Julia. Sky blue (or cobalt? I think the picture darkens her a bit) YC II (or goldenface..) clearwing?


I also had a budgie for a short while when I was a teenager (he was very old when I got him and died after only few months). Picture is very bad quality, but I'd still be curious to know if my guess for his color was correct. :)


Light green clearwing? Greywing would have more visible markings?


I'm very interested to learn these things so whether I'm right or wrong, I'd really like to know why so. For example "No, because if you look at the tail..." or "Yes, because the chest..." etc. It would be very helpful. :)

Edited by annip

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You deserve to have your own topic, so I made one for you. ;) This is a great introduction of yourself to the forum, so I've put it in the New to BBC section.


Welcome to the forum! :D


I think you are probably correct about Elmo. His dark yellow face does seem to suggest goldenface. And I've read that if any two of the yellowface mutations are combined (heterozygous), then that affects the amount of yellow that bleeds into the wings and body. We have quite an extensive thread about yellowface here on the forum that might be able to shed some light on it. But I have to confess, that with all the different effects that can be had by combining the different yellowface genes, I don't think I will ever be very good at distinguishing what they are if they are not just straight golden face or yellowface mutant one or two.


Here is a link to the thread about the yf mutations: http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=27620


As to whether Elmo is dominant pied or clearflight pied, both kinds look very similar, so he could be either one. But the Dominant pied, which is sometimes called Australian Banded Pied, ought to have a more or less wide clear stripe going across the chest. So I am leaning towards Elmo being a Clearflight Pied.


I think Elmo is a cobalt.


On to Onni. Lol, no pun intended!


He actually looks like he could be grey factored. It can be hard to tell between that and mauve, but if you look at his cheek patches, you should be able to tell whether they are violet or silvery grey. Grey factor will have grey cheek patches. Also, on a grey factor, the main tail feathers will be black, whereas on a mauve, they would be dark blue. Since his mother was violet, then the only way he could be a grey bird is if his father was grey.


For Urmas, it can be hard to detect violet in photographs. I'm not seeing it, just cobalt. But that could be due to the photo.


Julia looks like a clearwing yellow face mutant two sky blue. She may be cobalt, but this view of her looks like no dark factor to me. She has amazingly clear wings! I never see them like that around here. (I'm in the U.S.) I wish I could get mine to look like that.


Then for the light green hen in the bottom photo, I think that one is also an opaline. The opaline might be making the grey markings fainter than they otherwise would be. But I can definitely see the grey. That's how the clearwings around here turn out. Not quite dark enough to call actual greywings, but not quite clear enough to be good clearwings. They always say that there are modifier genes that blur the lines between the different dilution mutations. I've been trying to breed mine to get clearer wings, but the modifier genes always seem to get passed on too.


Your birds are very pretty. What kinds of chicks would you like to produce? If you don't know what things your boys are split to, you might have to get females with certain mutations, make split offspring, and then breed those in order to produce visuals. I guess it all depends on what you would like to make.


I can't seem to get the link to work. But the thread can be found in the pinned section of the Mutations forum. It is called "The Great YF Symposium". http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=27620


okay, now the link is working. :)

Edited by Finnie

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Thank you so much! :)


Many dominant pieds here in Finland look very much like Elmo and it's a bit more common here so that's why I'm suspecting that instead of a clearflight pied. You could still be right though! I'm absolutely not sure about guess, just leaning towards it a bit more propability wise. :) EDIT: No, sorry... You're absolutely right. I completely missed how he lacked any white/yellow on his belly that all the other dominant pieds seem to have. I feel like an idiot sometimes with these things!


I know the splits of my boys can affect the babies quite a bit. I'm trying to get in touch with their breeders (their previous owner wasn't sure, but I have some very promising leads - helps to have a country with only a few breeders) so I could learn about their parents and siblings and therefore sort out what they might have hidden. :)


What I know about Onni is that his mom was a violet of some sort (probably cobalt) as I said and apparently his father was a mauve. I don't know if the father was grey or not though. So if we look at inheritance, both options are still possible. You might be right about Urmas not being violet. I think I see it sometimes but as I said, I do have some problems with different shades so I'm not sure. And as I'm not planning to breed him (as he is Julias parner) it doesn't matter that much anyway. Just my curiosity kicking in. :D EDIT: Just got a responce saying the parents vere cobalt violet and mauve, possibly grey mauve. And apparently dad was split to opaline so there might be that too.


I do like violets, greys and mauves very much. Also spangle and opaline are some of my favourites. Actually some of the colors I like the least are different types of yellowface, but they seem popular here so I don't mind if some babies are yellowfaces of some sort. I do like greywing, clearwing and dilute however. :) And I would absolutely love to have some clearbodies, but I think there are less than five individuals in the whole country (Texas clearbody) so it might take a while to get them... All in all I enjoy the colder tones, either very dark or very light and right now I'm open to many possibilities until I really figure out what I want to do and why I want to do it. :)


With my previous breeding experience I've really grown to respect and love pure natural mutations so some day I could see myself having a small breeding flock of normal budgies with preferably no splits, but I realize it might be impossible to obtain that here and get rid of every other mutation. One can still dream though... :D


(Ugh, what a hard topic to discuss in a foreign language... and I haven't even started with all the lovely genetics questions I have about budgies and some of their inheritance patterns! :D)

Edited by annip

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Hi, welcome to bbc :)

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The boys had a tiny part in a theater play few days ago (something to do with organic sounds) and since I had to take them outside anyway, I also tried to get a few pictures in natural light... Well, tried.


I still can't capture some of the shades visible to the naked eye. Couple of people I asked, also said they can see a definitely violet shade all over Onni's body, especially neck and vent area. I also noticed a clearly violet shade on Elmo's neck I hadn't noticed before.


Unfortunately I also found out that Elmo is much older than I thought. He was born in 2007 and therefore he's probably too old for breeding purposes anyway? But as all my birds are first and foremost my pets, even the breeders, it's okay. Not all birds are supposed to breed and even if he wasn't too old there could be another reason why he shouldn't... and I was already prepared for that. :)


But onto the pictures... (Again, clicking opens the pictures in actual size.)



The cheek patches are clearly very violet, so Onni cannot be grey? Body color is very uneven but the bluer parts look like they have a violet hue on them - at least live. I can see it in the picture too, but because everyone has their own monitor settings, it might not show like that on other computers.


th_undukuva-31_zpscc78358b.jpg th_undukuva-21_zps21c8901d.jpg

Onni's back if anyone finds it useful in the identification process.


I'll probably get Onni a normal cobalt girl to find out about the violet. Or cobalt opaline so one of their male babies could be used to breed lovely mauve opaline babies someday. :) Or spangle... Oh, the opportunities.



I think the violet in Elmo's neck can be seen here (for a bit at least). Is that normal for yellowface mutations or could he be a cobalt violet?



Elmo has a white ring in his eyes so definitely a clearflight pied rather than dominant pied? :)

Edited by annip

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I brought home this little cutie on monday:




She's a sky blue violet opaline (violet shade is very clear live, but somehow the camera doesn't really capture it). Parents are light green violet opaline (dad) and cobalt (mom) and her siblings were clearly light green violet and green opaline. :)


I named her Sumu (meaning mist or fog in finnish) and she's an amazing flyer. She was born free in a hobbyists living room and she instantly seemed at home in my aviary too. Though she tried to land on my cockatiels for some reason. :D I usually keep new birds in their own cage for a while but as there was no reason at all to suspect anything infectious and she seemed really lost on her own, I decided to carefully try how she would react to the others. Also as she had never been in a cage before, it didn't seem right to keep her in one. My aviary is 5x6 meters wide and 3 meters high so she has lots of room to roam - and privacy too if she decides to need some. :) As I sat on the floor to hang out with my tame cockatiels, she landed right next to me and even tried to land on me a couple of times. I'm still a bit too scary, but treats and other birds should fix that soon!


I'm thinking on breeding Onni with a nice, dark green or cobalt girl and to keep one mauve boy (with violet if Onni is a violet after all) for Sumu to breed with. :)

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Hello annip, welcome to the budgie forum, I love your bird Elmo, he's a lovely looking golden face dom pied, sure would like him in my flock. As for Omni, he definately looks to be a Mauve colored bird, very nice also.

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