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Kaj

Sexing Some New Babies

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Hi there,

Hoping some of you might like to offer your opinion of the sexes of my latest clutch.

Baby A - Albino

5a1e25da-c934-4026-a09f-fd516e7f714a_zps115751f0.jpg

 

Baby B - Yellow faced pale blue dilute? spangle/light wings ?

9894b001-acb5-43d3-8999-68e5a40f37ef_zpsa7c73cbd.jpg

 

Baby C -Albino

9c02d9f5-7016-497b-8298-04446a77421e_zps5242598c.jpg

 

Baby D - Blue spangle

40a21082-493d-4295-8ccd-3b6b57d37714_zps77661d5a.jpg

 

Baby E - Blue pied

 

ce822dce-a4f4-4a08-baff-df4db942db61_zps2704e768.jpg

 

Also love to hear how you would describe the mutations of mum and dad - and for those of you into the genetics, you may like to commnt on the colours in the babies.

 

Dad- Pebbles - one of my favourites - loves celery with a vengeance

0abe38b0-ff66-41af-bf07-e720a1b663da_zps04117a72.jpg

 

And mum Rainbow - finally has fulfilled her life long ambition to raise successful clutches - previously just DIS eggs

28ee7fb9-192f-4392-a77e-c4f4e41bdbfa_zps1911c07c.jpg

 

Looking forward to your thoughts

Edited by Kaj

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Hi,

Not too good with telling sexes at this age, I'm pretty good once their fully feathered and have just left the box but I will have a go.

 

Baby A: Female

Baby B: Male

Baby C: Female

Baby D: Male

Baby E: Female

 

Both albinos will have to be hens, as neither of your parents are ino.

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Hi,

Not too good with telling sexes at this age, I'm pretty good once their fully feathered and have just left the box but I will have a go.

 

Baby A: Female

Baby B: Male

Baby C: Female

Baby D: Male

Baby E: Female

 

Both albinos will have to be hens, as neither of your parents are ino.

 

I completely agree with this answer. At this age, I find that they often look one way, and then start to change to looking the other way. So these guesses look right to me for now.

 

9894b001-acb5-43d3-8999-68e5a40f37ef_zpsa7c73cbd.jpg

 

I don't think this one looks like a spangle. I would have to see more of its wing markings from the back.

 

Also, the dad looks like he may be a spangle, but it's hard to see with the recessive pied removing a lot of the markings. If he is spangle, then you could get DF spangle chicks, that would be all white. Your top "albino" chick seems to have darker eyes than your other red-eyed chick. Is that just the photo? Does the top chick have true red eyes?

 

It's a very nice clutch. :) And the dad must be split to dilute. I think that chick is pale enough to qualify as dilute, and not just regular greywing, but that will depend on if the color darkens up as the feathers come in more, or during its first molt.

Edited by Finnie

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Hey Budgie Lov3r

Thanks for your answer. Your comment also pushed me to look the mutations/genetics of budgies - sex linked genes etc - so thanks for that because it seems really interesting, I have heaps to learn and I have only recently returned to breeding (with my kids) -having not been involved for many years when I was a child myself.

Hi Finnie, Thanks also for taking the time to add your bit - greatly appreciated. The wing markings on the back look like this:-

2014-04-13124437_zps9c6bd099.jpg

2014-04-13124427_zpscc302a32.jpg

And dad so far has only had albino babies not DF spangle. So how would you describe both parents? I am just learning here.

Dad- recessive pied split to albino?

Mum - pretty (told you I am learning) - maybe a yellow faced bluey green spangle/clear wing???

Also to help with the puzzle, I have included some babies from a previous clutch (same parents)

2014-02-25181358_zps76b2f6ed.jpg

2014-04-13125007bossy_zps0e80f6e4.jpg

2014-04-13124905fangle_zps3fe40735.jpg

2014-03-11150657_zps81927d3b.jpg

2014-03-05155348_zps75ce4b9a.jpg

And finally Pebbles previous partner was BamBam -(possibly a violet opaline ?) shown below along with their offspring. This may/may not help you to identify some other hidden aspects of Pebbles.

2013-07-15165059_zps240aac84.jpg

2013-10-22003707_zpsf41baf0a.jpg

 

Any comments would be helpful including how you would describe the mutations of the babies. Thanks

Edited by Kaj

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Hi Kaj,

 

Not too good with mutations either, I've been getting better with them but still don't fully understand them.

 

I think your hen is a golden face opaline spangle

Dad is a recessive pied, not sure if he is able to mask grey wing. If he can't mask grey wing he is masking spangle.

 

2014-04-13124437_zps9c6bd099.jpg

2014-04-13124427_zpscc302a32.jpg

 

I'm gonna guess that he is a yellow face T1 grey wing

 

Did you want suggestions on previous clutches or this clutch?

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Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

By masking grey wing or spangle, does this mean these are both sex-linked traits?

 

Great if you can identify mutations on any of the babies (and even BamBam) as it might help clarify clear-wing vs greywing vs spangle.

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Mum - pretty (told you I am learning) - maybe a yellow faced bluey green spangle/clear wing???

 

 

Lol, just throwing together random terms you have learned so far will really only confuse yourself further! :D

 

The yellow face mutation does tend to make the body color somewhere between blue and green, but we call it based on the dark factor it has, and use the blue based terms. So a yellow face with no dark factor we call a yellow face sky blue, even though the actual color will not look like sky blue, It will look like aqua, turquoise or seafoam. With one dark factor, we call it yellow face cobalt, even though it very often turns more to a dark green shade, or blotches of blue and green that don't quite mix all the way. With two dark factors, we say yellow face mauve, even though it tends to turn it to a muddy-green looking color.

 

the slash mark "/" means "split to", so even though in regular writing, people put slash marks between words all the time, when we write about genetics, we should not put the slash mark in unless we actually mean to say "split to". So you may have meant to say "spangle comma clearwing" or "spangle and clearwing" or "spangle or clearwing" etc, but in genetics what you wrote is spangle split to clearwing.

 

There is also a difference between the terms "split to" and "masking". I will try to explain, and I hope it helps with your learning, and doesn't make it worse. :) )

 

When we are talking about a recessive gene, then a bird needs to carry two copies of the gene in order for it to be visible. So using recessive pied as an example, if the bird has two copies of the recessive pied gene, then we can say that it is "visual recessive pied". We can also say that it is "homozygous" for recessive pied. (Homozygous means that both genes in the pair are the same.)

 

But if a bird only has one copy of the recessive pied gene, and the other chromosome has a copy of the normal gene, then the bird will look normal. Because the normal is dominant to the recessive pied. (That is Heterozygous, which means both genes in the pair are different.) We then say that the bird is "normal split to recessive pied" (normal/recessive pied)

 

"Masking", on the other hand, refers to a bird that does have two copies of the recessive gene, so it is homozygous, but it has other mutations which interfere with our being able to see the recessive mutation visibly. So we can't really call that bird a "visual recessive pied" because we can't actually see it. So we say that the other mutation is "masking" the recessive pied.

 

So "split to" means that the bird only has one copy of the recessive gene, making us unable to see the mutation. And "masking" means that the bird has two copies, but we still cant see the mutation because something else is hiding (or masking) it.

 

Albino masks just about every other mutation, so that is where you will see this referred to the most. But there are other mutations that mask things as well. You will find that people who don't understand the terms will use "split to" and "masking" interchangeably, and thus confuse new people who are trying to learn.

 

To insert another example here, when you have an albino bird that came from parents with the recessive pied mutation, like your clutch here, you don't know if the albino chick has one or two copies of the recessive pied gene. You do know that she has at least one copy that she got from her dad, so she is at least split to recessive pied. But the albino hides whether or not she would have normal markings or pied markings. So we can't tell whether she is masking recessive pied. She might be masking normal/recessive pied.

 

Sorry that it takes so long to explain. I didn't even get a chance to answer your other i.d. questions. Maybe next time.

 

-Finnie

 

Hi Kaj,

 

Not too good with mutations either, I've been getting better with them but still don't fully understand them.

 

 

Hi Budgielov3r,

I hope you don't take what I'm writing as criticism, but rather as me trying to help the both of you learn. :)

 

I think your hen is a golden face opaline spangle

 

This is correct, but I would venture to say that Goldenface has a deeper yellow in the mask, along the lines of a regular green budgie. This one appears to have a lighter, creamier yellow face, so I would say yellow face mutant two. Also, all of the babies appear to be yf2 as well, and not yf1. When they are that young, their bodies look more blue, and the yellow will tint it more when they go through their first molt.

 

0abe38b0-ff66-41af-bf07-e720a1b663da_zps04117a72.jpg

 

Dad is a recessive pied, not sure if he is able to mask grey wing. If he can't mask grey wing he is masking spangle.

 

This is a case where we should say the dad is split to greywing, not masking it. We can see visually that the dad is a black-wing budgie, because what markings he does have are black. And since he has produced greywing offspring, that tells us that he is indeed split to some type of greywing. (My guess is that it's the dilute gene.)

 

As for the spangle, if the dad has it, we should be able to see it visually. If we could look closer at the bird in person, we should be able to tell whether those few black marks he has are regular ones or spangle ones. Case in point, the two recessive pied chicks in the middle of this photo:

 

2013-10-22003707_zpsf41baf0a.jpg

 

The chick on the left has obviously normal markings, not spangle ones. The chick on the right is harder to tell, but if you look at the one secondary flight feather closest to the albino chick, you can see that the main part of the feather is white, and it has a black lining. That chick is a spangle. Notice that it is harder to see any difference between the two birds' shoulder markings. It was necessary to see the flight feather in order to pin point the spangle. Look on the dad, and see whether he has anything like that.

 

One thing I will say about masking, With the recessive pied birds, if they are so pied out that you can barely see any markings in order to tell what they look like, then I think you could technically say that counts as "masking", even though some of the marks are not hidden.

 

By masking grey wing or spangle, does this mean these are both sex-linked traits?

 

 

 

No, they are not sex-linked. They are on regular chromosomes. The greywing mutations are recessive, the spangle mutation has what we call incomplete dominance. The mutation is dominant to normal. If there is one copy of the gene, it will make a partial change in the bird's markings, and having two copies of the gene will make a further, or complete, change in the markings. That's why we have single factor spangles and double factor spangles.

 

2014-04-13124427_zpscc302a32.jpg

This answers my question about his back markings. He is definitely not a spangle.

 

Great if you can identify mutations on any of the babies (and even BamBam) as it might help clarify clear-wing vs greywing vs spangle.

 

They are all very cute and beautiful. I would love to ID them all for you, but I have gone WAY over my forum time allotment for today! (So so sorry for the hugely long post!) If I remember to, I will go over their mutations another time.

Edited by Finnie

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Hey Finnie, WOW - thanks for your fantastic response. I have had to read and re-read it many times because it contained so much - I really appreciate all the time you spent on addressing my questions and I am really looking forward to your next update when time permits. Your last reply really improved my understanding but also created more questions some of which may be addressed when you identify the mutations of the posted birds.

 

I apologise in advance if my questions are stupid but hope that your direct replies will help me and others to learn more.Thanks also to Budgie Lov3r who has taken the time to get involved in this discussion and offer his assistance.

 

Firstly regarding the yellow face mutation, how would an original green bush budgie be classified? As a yellow-faced sky-blue or this does not apply because it is not considered a mutation?

 

Regarding dad Pebbles (sorry I don't know how to cut and quote on this forum), my understanding now is that he is probably a recessive pied /albino /dilute(greywing). I cannot visually identify any spangle on dad (assuming that I am looking for an outline feature) but since some of the offspring appear to be spangle does that mean that either both mums or dad have at least one copy of the gene that is somehow being masked in them? If only one gene exists but cannot be seen (even though it is dominant to normal perhaps because he is so pied?) should we also say he is /spangle? Is it not possible for Pebbles to have 2 spangle genes as then he would be a double factor spangle and be white?

 

Also will all of Pebble's offspring be /recessive pied(1 gene) or masking recessive pied(2 genes-but maybe only possible with inos) if they are not visibly recessive pied as they will all have at least one recessive pied gene.

 

Also with all of Pebble's male offspring, will 50% be likely to be /albino?

 

The 1st clutch of babies with yellow faces are now going through moults and are showing more green which you suggested will mean yf2. Does this also mean that all babies are likely to only be yf2 or is it possible to also have a yf1 or goldenface.

 

Just an update on the babies, all seem as suggested except for D who now appears to be female (spangle?).

 

Also I have just noted that one of the babies in the photo of four is a ringin. I believe he is a DF dominant pied (shown on the ladder below-white with facial bars) as his dad was I think a DF dominant pied (yellow) and mum is a SF dominant pied so he should be excluded if you are using the babies to work out the mutations of the parents.

 

2014-02-25181358_zps76b2f6ed.jpg

 

Would still love to have the mutations identified of the offspring, Rainbow and BamBam (assuming that we will have sorted Pebbles by this stage) Thanks heaps

Edited by Kaj

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2014-02-25181358_zps76b2f6ed.jpg

 

Left to right:

 

1. Greywing spangle yellowface mutant two cobalt male. Probably got more yellow in the wings and body when it molted. Also probably a dilute.

 

2. Spangle cobalt male

 

3. Normal cobalt male

 

4. The ring-in is a male, that's about all I can see, lol.

 

2014-04-13125007bossy_zps0e80f6e4.jpg

 

Greywing (not dilute) yellowface mutant two sky blue hen

 

2014-04-13124905fangle_zps3fe40735.jpg

 

Spangle yellow face mutant two cobalt male

 

2014-03-11150657_zps81927d3b.jpg

 

Greywing (maybe dilute?) yellow face mutant two cobalt hen. This one looks more mutant one, so it would depend on how much yellow suffuses after the first molt. (Except that I establish below that the mother is yf2/blue, so she cannot throw any other kind of yellow face mutation.)

 

2014-03-05155348_zps75ce4b9a.jpg

 

Dilute spangle yellow face mutant two sky blue, can't tell whether male or female. Is this the same spangle as the one on the left above? Because if it is, then I'm not sure whether it's sky blue or cobalt.

 

2013-07-15165059_zps240aac84.jpg

 

Opaline cobalt or violet hen, hard to tell by the photo.

 

2013-10-22003707_zpsf41baf0a.jpg

 

Left to right:

 

1. Dilute cobalt male. If it's the same yf2 one, then the yellow is not showing up in this photo. I also can't tell if it's the spangle one or the normal marked one.

 

2. Recessive pied cobalt hen.

 

3. Recessive pied cobalt, can't see the cere. I also got to thinking, that maybe that's not a spangle marking on that flight feather. Maybe it is a solid marked feather, that is hidden behind a white one, so that the white one is lying over the black one, making it look like a spangle outline. You would have to look at all the feathers on that particular wing in person to know.

 

4. Albino hen.

 

Firstly regarding the yellow face mutation, how would an original green bush budgie be classified? As a yellow-faced sky-blue or this does not apply because it is not considered a mutation?

 

The original green bush budgie is a green series bird. The original is a light green, but there have been known to be dark greens in the wild as welll

 

The term yellow faced sky blue refers to a bird with no dark factors that has lost its ability to produce the proper amount of yellow pigment. So it has less yellow on it than a green bird.

 

A sky blue bird is one with no dark factors that has lost its ability to produce any yellow at all.

 

Regarding dad Pebbles, I cannot visually identify any spangle on dad
Then he is not a spangle.

 

but since some of the offspring appear to be spangle does that mean that either both mums or dad have at least one copy of the gene that is somehow being masked in them?
They get it from their mother. She is a spangle, which you can see. It is not hidden. Plus, the chicks only need to get it from one parent.

Since the dad is not spangle, that answers the question about whether the white chick could be a Double Factor spangle. (It cannot) Besides, if it were possible, then chances are you would have gotten more than one of them out of so many chicks born.

 

If only one gene exists but cannot be seen (even though it is dominant to normal perhaps because he is so pied?) should we also say he is /spangle?
No, if for some reason you couldn't see it due to lack of visible markings on him, then you would say he was masking it, not split to it. You can never say "split to" in reference to a dominant mutation.

 

Is it not possible for Pebbles to have 2 spangle genes as then he would be a double factor spangle and be white?
Exactly. Every double factor spangle will be all white, or all yellow. Sometimes the hidden body color will show up as a light suffusion. And keep in mind that the yellow face birds will be all yellow, but it will be lighter than the yellow of a regular green series bird.

 

Also will all of Pebble's offspring be /recessive pied(1 gene)
Yes.

 

or masking recessive pied
Only if you pair him with a mate that can contribute a recessive pied gene. Yes, then the ino chicks could be masking it, and you won't know whether they have one or two copies. (Unless you pair him with a visual recessive pied mate- then you would get all 100% visual recessive pied offspring, and you would know for sure that any ino chicks were definitely masking it.

 

Also with all of Pebble's male offspring, will 50% be likely to be /albino?
Exactly. And test mating would be the only way to find out which ones were.

 

The 1st clutch of babies with yellow faces are now going through moults and are showing more green which you suggested will mean yf2. Does this also mean that all babies are likely to only be yf2 or is it possible to also have a yf1 or goldenface.

 

They will all be the same mutation of yellowface. Since the mother has shown that she can produce both yf2 and blue babies, then you know that she is split to blue. (Yf2/blue) If she were throwing 100% yf2 babies, then you could suspect that she was homozygous for it. And if she were heterozygous with yf2 and yf1 (yf2/yf1), then you would get no blue babies. Just yf2s and yf1s. Goldenface is semi-dominant to the other yfs, so you would see it on the mother. But since you know that she is split to blue, you also know that she can only carry one other copy of the gene for that location, and it is the yf2 gene.

Edited by Finnie

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Hey Finnie thanks heaps for addressing all my queries and providing such comprehensive explanations. You have really helped my understanding (and interest in mutations). One thing I didn' t pick-up though was that mum Rainbow is in fact a spangle (still not sure I see this) and that it was her passing on the spangle gene.

 

 

Also one of the sons of Pebbles and BamBam has just had a clutch of six beautiful babies which I believe includes a creamino, an albino, an opaline and some SF dominant pieds.

I hope to put some pictures up soon under the mutations section for further discussion. It appears that the son is /opaline (from BamBam) and /ino (from Pebbles)

 

 

By the way Finnie you have a great website - given me some good ideas for keeping my numbers in check..

Edited by Kaj

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