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Matt Welchman

Nationals

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Lets start by saying all the NSW judges must have to go back to Judging school.

I am refering to the Greywing class .

Why when we have our selection night where the birds are picked for the club team , we have judges pick them and check varieties.

Then they go to the Interbranch selections where the national team is selected. Here there are more than 12 judges going over the birds, Maybe more. Then at the end they select which birds will be the best for the team. Let me remind you here that we have at least 6 National accredited judges.

 

The NSW Team had 2 birds disqualified , A possible grey Yellow and a possible Dilute.

How can a judge that Knows nothing about the breeding behind these birds make that call. these birds have been looked at by multiple judges before they are put in front of the national judges.

The birds should not be disqualified unless that have a genuine reason , if the bird doesnt meet the standard and remember that every class has a full written standard then the bird should be penalised.

I feel sorry for the breeders of these birds as they are now a bastardised variety , the markings are not dark enough for greywings and now not light enough to be dilutes . Birds will be taken to shows and be wrong classed one week and then win at another show the next.

There is talk about having a bird accredited a variety but this is not going to work unless it is accepted in a national sense.

 

The ANBC has really let itself down , and we are wondering why the hobby is shrinking.

 

PS, Nice greywing/Dilutes in the blackeyed class and nice greywings in the clearwing class.

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Lets start by saying all the NSW judges must have to go back to Judging school.

I am refering to the Greywing class .

Why when we have our selection night where the birds are picked for the club team , we have judges pick them and check varieties.

Then they go to the Interbranch selections where the national team is selected. Here there are more than 12 judges going over the birds, Maybe more. Then at the end they select which birds will be the best for the team. Let me remind you here that we have at least 6 National accredited judges.

 

The NSW Team had 2 birds disqualified , A possible grey Yellow and a possible Dilute.

How can a judge that Knows nothing about the breeding behind these birds make that call. these birds have been looked at by multiple judges before they are put in front of the national judges.

The birds should not be disqualified unless that have a genuine reason , if the bird doesnt meet the standard and remember that every class has a full written standard then the bird should be penalised.

I feel sorry for the breeders of these birds as they are now a bastardised variety , the markings are not dark enough for greywings and now not light enough to be dilutes . Birds will be taken to shows and be wrong classed one week and then win at another show the next.

There is talk about having a bird accredited a variety but this is not going to work unless it is accepted in a national sense.

 

The ANBC has really let itself down , and we are wondering why the hobby is shrinking.

 

PS, Nice greywing/Dilutes in the blackeyed class and nice greywings in the clearwing class.

 

Hi Matt,

 

Let me preface my reply by saying that I was not at the Nationals in 2012 but have viewed the video posted on the ANBC site which shows the 2 birds that were disqualified. You are concerned that the judges know nothing about the breeding of the disqualified birds, but this is normal. How can a judge know the genotype of any bird he/she is presented with? They can only judge them as they see them and therefore judge on their phenotype.

 

Referring to the Greywing standard it states that the body colour is "approaching full intensity". Neither of those 2 birds conform to that, with Bird H appearing to be grey shade of yellow. If you compare this to the winning birds the difference in body colour is markedly noticeable. The standard also requires a violet or grey cheek patch. Bird U has a very pale violet cheek patch and therefore does not conform with the greywing variety. Birds K and G in the same video show the shade and intensity required for the violet cheek patch in the blue series greywing. The standard further states that birds entered in the wrong class are to be DQ'd, not penalised. The judges called Bird H a Grey Yellow and refering to the standard for suffused yellow/white it appears to meet the criteria. The judge also referred to the Bird U as a dilute. Bird U doesn't appear to conform to the greywing standard but we have no dilute standard published as yet so it's sort of in a "no-mans-land" as of the standard @ 27May2012.

 

Here's the video of the 2012 Nationals greywing class:

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I can understand your disappointment at your state's birds being DQ'd, especially given that their acceptance in their class may well have changed the overall competition winner, but as an outsider I feel the judges at the National got it right. I would be asking how this situation was allowed to occur at NSW state level and making sure it doesn't happen again. I feel the NSW selection panel, not the 2012 National judges, have erred in this case but to be fair the delineation between greywing/dilute/suffused/blackeye is open to interpretation and therefore always going to present a challenge.

 

Hi Daryl,The Letters to the BSNSW will be already fresh off the printer by now.

I couldnt make the Nationals either, I did watch it online though and I also looked at all the birds at our selection day.

 

On the selection day we also had a display class of the suffused and I know my eyesight is okay , but some of these birds looked the same as the greywing class and visa versa.

The problem is and the judge made comment about one of the birds being light in colour but was classed as a greywing . Now if you take bird U and breed it to a violet the body colour comes up in intensity and you have a greywing again. So where does this leave the breeder.

I believe we have just witnessed exactly what lies ahead for all these varieties at the National level. Goodluck to all breeders of these Varieties.

In 2 years we will be equal to the UK birds where you wont tell between the Greywing/dilute,suffused/blackeye

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i did go to the nats and i did see these birds and i have to say i agreed that these birds were not of true Grey wing standard or variety i think it is very hard to distinguish at times whats breed from grey wing split dilutes and dilutes split grey wing and belive it really just goes back to the breeders records and knowledge of their stud i myself could see that the birds were not of variety stated before i even knew they were not placed being new to this all i didnt realize that mistakes like this can happen but can see that that it just comes down to genetic knowledge something most breeders these days dont know much off anymore

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All I can say is that being in the position of both breeding clearwings & dilutes as well as judging I'd have to say...... those poor judges. Unfortunately this series of varieites (Greywings, Clearwings and Dilutes) tend to pick up modifiers from each other and end up looking like a sorry mix of the lot of them. I've seen lots of clearwings benched as greywings due to heavy wing markings, greywings with the original 50% bodycolour suffusion benched as dilutes etc etc and what can a poor bloody judge do....... we don't know the genetics behind these birds and neither should we be expected to. Breeding one of the varieties can give you some insight but what do you do when presented with what you know bloody well could be a clearwing that conforms to the greywing standard??????

 

Unfortunately if a bird doesn't conform to the standard (even if it IS one of that varieity) what should a judge actually then do?

 

I wouldn't have liked to be in the position that these guys were in........... and then just to get bagged by everyone........ no thanks.

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All I can say is that being in the position of both breeding clearwings & dilutes as well as judging I'd have to say...... those poor judges. Unfortunately this series of varieites (Greywings, Clearwings and Dilutes) tend to pick up modifiers from each other and end up looking like a sorry mix of the lot of them. I've seen lots of clearwings benched as greywings due to heavy wing markings, greywings with the original 50% bodycolour suffusion benched as dilutes etc etc and what can a poor bloody judge do....... we don't know the genetics behind these birds and neither should we be expected to. Breeding one of the varieties can give you some insight but what do you do when presented with what you know bloody well could be a clearwing that conforms to the greywing standard??????

 

Unfortunately if a bird doesn't conform to the standard (even if it IS one of that varieity) what should a judge actually then do?

 

I wouldn't have liked to be in the position that these guys were in........... and then just to get bagged by everyone........ no thanks.

 

Yes your right the judges are always left hung out to dry. But in this case the judges have in my view given the NSW judges a slap in the face.

I personally would like to see three varieties only , Blackeye, Greywing and Clearwing and than anything thay doesnt conform to the variety is then judged accordingly.

Maybe for these varieties we need to allocate more points to Variety than to just the size of the bird.

If something isnt changed we will end up with suffused yellow/whites and Dilutes only on the bench.

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Well isn't that what the judges in this case actually did? Judge the greywings and DQ anything that didn't conform. I don't actually see what has changed this year compared to other years (suffused is not a comp class yet is it?) and I disagree that all we will see are dilutes on the bench if we still have a Nationals comp that allows awards in variety. There will still be people giving clearwings, blackeyes and greywings a good go if there is still an award available for them. I think it's the benefit of having the Nationals in the format that we do. I will be nice for those of us who breed a stonker dilute in the process of breeding these other varieties to have a class to show those birds in.

 

I obviously wasn't at the selections so don't know what happened there but I guess I would have to ask why those birds ended up in the greywing class when they don't conform to the greywing standard. No slap to any judge intended! Just a straight out curiousity based question.

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Well isn't that what the judges in this case actually did? Judge the greywings and DQ anything that didn't conform. I don't actually see what has changed this year compared to other years (suffused is not a comp class yet is it?) and I disagree that all we will see are dilutes on the bench if we still have a Nationals comp that allows awards in variety. There will still be people giving clearwings, blackeyes and greywings a good go if there is still an award available for them. I think it's the benefit of having the Nationals in the format that we do. I will be nice for those of us who breed a stonker dilute in the process of breeding these other varieties to have a class to show those birds in.

 

I obviously wasn't at the selections so don't know what happened there but I guess I would have to ask why those birds ended up in the greywing class when they don't conform to the greywing standard. No slap to any judge intended! Just a straight out curiousity based question.

 

i totally agree with you nubbly i dont see that the birds were judged wrongly over here for the class they were placed in.

the differences was stand out the birds should not of been selected for this class if selected for the other appropriate class that may of changed things with their outcome , i think its about time people whom breed dilutes can show them and like nubbly don't feel the other birds will be pushed aside i think the judges got it right and should be no slander toward them doing a bad job as for the judges that nominated for this class i feel either the greywings if that was their best they could choose for a high level of competition i think they either choose on body size /bird over variety and possibly this may make people realize that variety although awarded less really does count over bird its self specially at top competition status .....id been discusseded personally if the two birds were not ds as this would show that the standard means jack squat

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Well isn't that what the judges in this case actually did? Judge the greywings and DQ anything that didn't conform. I don't actually see what has changed this year compared to other years (suffused is not a comp class yet is it?) and I disagree that all we will see are dilutes on the bench if we still have a Nationals comp that allows awards in variety. There will still be people giving clearwings, blackeyes and greywings a good go if there is still an award available for them. I think it's the benefit of having the Nationals in the format that we do. I will be nice for those of us who breed a stonker dilute in the process of breeding these other varieties to have a class to show those birds in.

 

I obviously wasn't at the selections so don't know what happened there but I guess I would have to ask why those birds ended up in the greywing class when they don't conform to the greywing standard. No slap to any judge intended! Just a straight out curiousity based question.

 

I just dont think the birds should be disqualified, Just lost points for being down on colour like the other birds in the class.

The problem will be that there will be birds somewhere in the middle where there is no class for them at any show.

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Well isn't that what the judges in this case actually did? Judge the greywings and DQ anything that didn't conform. I don't actually see what has changed this year compared to other years (suffused is not a comp class yet is it?) and I disagree that all we will see are dilutes on the bench if we still have a Nationals comp that allows awards in variety. There will still be people giving clearwings, blackeyes and greywings a good go if there is still an award available for them. I think it's the benefit of having the Nationals in the format that we do. I will be nice for those of us who breed a stonker dilute in the process of breeding these other varieties to have a class to show those birds in.

 

I obviously wasn't at the selections so don't know what happened there but I guess I would have to ask why those birds ended up in the greywing class when they don't conform to the greywing standard. No slap to any judge intended! Just a straight out curiousity based question.

 

I just dont think the birds should be disqualified, Just lost points for being down on colour like the other birds in the class.

The problem will be that there will be birds somewhere in the middle where there is no class for them at any show.

 

matt how is that a problem their are and have been birds like that in most classed look at the df spangle with the true neck collar ( these birds get put at back of class for their suffusion yet that is what a true dfs is like ) a true df in my eyes, yet its been breed out for years on end creating a cinnamon dfs with out suffusion in turn creating the any other variety and cinnamon spangles intern creating a huge reduction on the quality of spangle marks , if what you said was allowed then their would be no point in a standard at all

personally i feel that variety needs to come before the bird in the points cards when judging the birds in the shows a change i know will never happen very sadly

at moment its bird size,feather,stance ,then variety well something like that all i know is you get more points for a big bird with feather and size over a well pro ported bird with posture and good variety , its the variety that should be appointed the most points for anyone can breed a stomping big bird with feather and size with out the goods in its variety ..sadly the birds are loosing the true visual beauty in some breeders chase o breed a big feathery bird for the bench because the judges are awarding them regardless of the quality of their variety , only a small handful will actually judge with variety in mind and size n feather second to stance and visual requirements of the type, i say go that few lot of judges we need more of you keep it up

Edited by GenericBlue

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Its not the first time, that NSW Judges, have stuffed up.They had a clanger ayear or 2 back..

Us Vic don't mind, it makes it easer for us to beat NSW if they don't score in a class.

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