Division Of Genes

[Daz 0]

When buying a new bird, do you always look at the whole bird to see if is exactly what you want.

 

Buy that i mean, do you pass up an top quality Opaline hen for a poorer quality normal because you want the normal.

If so, you are like most people. The attitude is to get want you want at all cost quickly.

 

Remember, if you take that good quality Opaline hen and pair her to almost any normal cock (most cocks are split opaline .. or something)

You will get a number of Normal Hens.

 

split opaline Cock x Opaline Hen = Opline Cocks, Split Opaline Cocks, Opaline Hens and Normal Hens

 

So %50 hens will normal.

 

I always look at the birds first. Then work out how to split the genes. (what the outcome will be)

 

Do this also for features. If you want a Normal Hen with good mask and spots. A dirty Opaline (Spots everywhere) to a good cock might get you want you want.

 

If though you have $4000 to $6000 to spend on the bird.. why not buy the bird with everything you want?

 

There is an old saying.. it's easier (cheaper) to breed your own hens than to buy them.

[splat 0]

Good point Daz and when you breed your own you know 9 times out of 10 that they will breed for you and you know what is behind them too.

[Dave_McMinn 0]

This is something that a lot of people starting out breeding do not think about too much. I think all of us want to breed everything. We all want to breed good spangles, good clearwings, good dommie pieds, good recessive pieds, some nice fallows, and so on and so on.

 

If we actually started thinking we want to breed good quality birds, then worried about types later, we would be in a much stronger position a lot sooner.

 

I agree, buy the good bird with good features, then worry about varieties later.

 

Unless of course you are an experienced breeder with $6000!!!!

[Daz 0]

Too right Splat.

 

Here is the 50% rule.

 

Remembering that Dominants will breed 50% of their own.

 

Eg Spangle to normal will give 50% spangle.

Spangle to spangle will give 50% spangle.

 

Sex Variety is also 50%

 

Sex variety split cocks to visual hens will give 50% visual Cocks and 50% normal hens.

 

Recessives are the same..

 

Split to Split will give 50% split.

 

Normals are the same.

 

Normal to Dominant will give 50% normals.

[renee 0]

That's right. We are all told when we are starting out as Novices to "Buy the Bird".

 

However, if you are not careful you end up very quickly with a stud of Greygreen Cinnamons split Opalines or vise versa

 

I know of one Open Breeder over here whose entire stud is Cinnamon or split Cinnamon. And it is another reason that, at least in WA, it is virtually impossible to buy a DF Normal bird - not split for a sex linked variety. For that same reason it is very hard to breed DF Normals 'cause the sex linked gene can remain "hidden" in the cock birds for generations.

 

I believe once you have been breeding for a few years you need to slowly settle on the varieties you want to specialise in. Then it becomes a case of purchasing specific compatible birds possessing the features you want. Yes, if you have loadsa money you can go out and get the complete package but that is a luxury for some, not most of us.

[splat 0]

Daz I have to be the exception lol, no truley though

I have never tried to bred the best of any variety, from when I first started

I have always tried to breed the bird and worry about variety later.

I don't even care about colour, just the bird first and everything else falls into place later.

I was told when I first got into it to breed the bird first and worry about the variety later

and I still get told that. Great advice I think.

My birds are going from strength to strength.

Edited September 23, 2011 by **KAZ**
edited..dave into daz

[Daryl 0]

Whilst on the topic of "The 50% Rule", I would like to discuss the following:

 

There is no such thing as "my bird is 50% breeder A and 50% breeder B" (or ANY percentage less than 100%),

just because you crossed 2 birds, one sourced from breeder A and one from breeder B. I believe this is a constant error perpetuated in auction catalogs and in general conversation.

 

Let me explain my thinking using simple colour genetics with which we are familiar with and in each case I'll relate these back to the statement above. I'll also refrain from using actual breeder names and simply use the terminology Breeder A, Breeder B etc.

 

Case 1:

 

If you breed together 2 pure Light Greens (from breeder A), the offspring will be 100% pure Light Green (ie Breeder A to Breeder A gives 100% Breeder A).

 

Breeding a pure light Green (Breeder A) with a pure Sky Blue (Breeder would, in the generally accepted terminology, give birds which were 50% Breeder A and 50% Breeder B. Given that these offspring (all Light Green/Blue) carry a Green gene and a Blue gene then this appears to be correct.

 

However, what happens when you breed your 50/50 bird to Breeder B (ie a LIght Green/Blue to a Sky Blue)?

The resultant offspring would be half Light Green/Blue (ie comprising 50% Breeder A and 50% Breeder and half Sky Blue (100% Breeder .

 

However, using the thinking often used in percentage calculations in auction catalogs and general conversation we would expect this:

A "50% Breeder A/50% Breeder B" (Light Green/Blue) bird crossed with "100% Breeder B" (Sky Blue) bird gives offspring which would be termed 25% Breeder A and 75% Breeder B. As you can see this type of calculation is a load of the proverbial you-know-what as, to use the example above, would infer we have a bird which is 75% Breeder B. This is impossible as you can't have a bird which is 25% Light Green and 75% Sky Blue.

 

Case 2:

 

You mate your Breeder A (your Light Green cock) with a Breeder C (which happens to be a Single Factor Dominant Pied Light Green hen)

We know that the theoretical progeny of this pairing will be 50% Light Green and 50% SF Dominant Pied Light Green.

 

Again, using the old "averaging of breeders percentages" rule above, you would expect an outcome where ALL of the chick contained 50% Breeder A (ie 50% Light Green) and 50% Breeder C (ie 50% SF DP Light Green). This is obviously a nonsense as it such birds (ie a half of a SF pied) don't exist and the outcome doesn't correlate with the theoretical colour outcome above which shows that half of the chicks are 100% Breeder A and half of the chicks are 100% Breeder C, not a mix of such.

 

Case 3:

 

If you've followed my ramblings so far, well done! Now for a final example:

 

A bird from Breeder B (therefore 100% Breeder , a Sky Blue cock is mated to a bird from Breeder C (our SF Dominant Pied Light Green hen) As most auction catalogs would have you believe, all offspring from this pair would contain genes which were 50% Breeder B and 50% Breeder C.

 

However, the colour outcome would be:

half chicks - SF DP Light Green/Blue (ie this seems to be 50% Breeder B and 50% Breeder C, so far so good)

half chicks - Light Green/Blue (ie 50% Breeder B, but only half of the Breeder C (the Light Green part) was passed on. How do you define this as a percentage? Half of the Breeder C portion (the pied) is missing!!)

 

Conclusion:

 

The examples given above are relatively simple. Of course from this we could introduce a mix of colours and varieties whose inheritance is recessive, sex-linked or dominant etc in nature and this exercise would become a nightmare. But this is the situation we face when combining the thousands of gene combinations which make up and control the inheritance of the exhibition features we strive to perfect. The percentages are nonsensical as they can't truly be tracked unless we know the inheritance of each specific feature we are trying to control and the makeup of each bird from Breeder X. Which of course we can't.

 

When someone states they have a bird which is 100% Breeder X, what exactly does that mean? What is the definition of a 100% Breeder X bird other than to indicate it was bred by Breeder X? However, did Breeder X breed it from their long line of champion Normals, their developing Pieds, or a pair of outcrosses they themselves purchased?

 

In short, I believe it is pointless stating a bird contains percentages of certain breeders as there is no way this can be proven nor does it actually mean a lot. If it is desired to "name drop" how your stock has been developed then perhaps the more correct way is to simply state only the breeder's name(s) used to create the bird. The real percentages are anyone's guess

[splat 0]

That's an excellent point Daryl and in my view spot on.

 

And you know how they say in a nest with say a spangle and say a Dom pied which I have just done and they say 50% chance of spangle and 50% chance of pied and of course some can be spangle pied and some can be normal is this right. Anyhow these percentages are over a few nest not just that one nest.

Some new breeders expect to get dom pieds because they have a dom pied down but that does not all ways happen.

I find a dom pied cock you get less pieds than if you used a dom pied hen.

 

I have down a spangle cock and a dom pied hen and they had 5 fertile eggs and I got 5 dom pied. No spangle and no normals and no spangle pieds, I was actually happy with the result.

I am not good at genetics.

Edited September 23, 2011 by **KAZ**

[GenericBlue 0]

That's an excellent point Daryl and in my view spot.

 

And you know how they say in a nest with say a spangle and say a Dom pied which I have just done and they say 50% chance of spangle and 50% chance of pied and of course some can be spangle pied and some can be normal is this right. Anyhow these percentages are over a few nest not just that one nest.

Some new breeders expect to get dom pieds because they have a dom pied down but that does not all ways happen.

I find a dom pied cock you get less pieds than if you used a dom pied hen.

 

I have down a spangle cock and a dom pied hen and they had 5 fertile eggs and I got 5 dom pied. No spangle and no normals and no spangle pieds, I was actually happy with the result.

I am not good at genetics.

yes this it spot on

my 08 cock i have for cull he has had all normal hens with paired with cinnamon hens then i put him with a lacewing and get two cinnamon cocks mainly why he goes

ill sell his sons and him keep the hens

 

also some split inos only toss out one in every 7 chicks others toss out 3 every 5 chicks

its all pot luck really