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**KAZ**

Budgerigar Nationals

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As the Budgerigar nationals are about to happen again very soon, I was wondering yet again about the procedures in place for birds to travel safely to the venue and return just as well as when they left.

 

I find it odd that many breeders who employ quarantine measures in their aviaries with regard to new incoming birds, then have birds go off to the Nationals in communal travel boxes, the birds are then housed together and travel back home the same way.

 

I know this is just how it is, but is there a better way ? Is there better seperate travel boxes or cubicles that would work or wouldnt this acchieve it anyway ? Are these things discussed at a higher level ?

 

How many birds get sick along the way ?

 

How many good birds go off to the nationals and return and die ?

 

How many successfully breed afterwards ?

 

Is there any facts kept on this situations or do breeders just accept certain losses ?

 

Do breeders hold back their better birds and send the lesser ones of a family line ?

 

I hear of many birds that come back from the nationals sick or injured or die shortly after. Others that dont breed after...ever again.

 

This is just a curiousity question, hoping for open discussion, ideas, etc.

 

If anyone has any stories to tell and dont want their name put to it PM me so we can get the full story ....post comments ....one way or another.

 

 

 

Article http://www.oocities.org/heartland/2761/articles/national.html

Edited by **KAZ**

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That is why I was really happy when my white df spangle got on the national team as a reserve but he didn't go but I really didn't want him to go. worried about loosing him.

but then if you want get up there you need them to go.

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I'm Not positive but the birds from each state are housed in a big cage for each

state,I guess you have to Quarantine your birds when they come home.I would think

that most breeders,would put there returning birds by themselves, for a short time

so they could settle back down.

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Geez Kaz - talk about focus on the Negatives of our National show which is the pinnacle of our great hobby

 

My experience of having birds selected to represent Victorian at the Nationals has been extremely postitive.

All my birds that have gone away have come back in as good or better health than before they left, and all have gone on to breed successful for a number of years. The work the team carers do in getting the birds presented on the day is exemplary.

 

I find it hard to beleive that someone would be in position not to send there best possible birds and send lesser birds from a family - there isnt a breeder in the country who has that luxury!!!!

 

I'm sure there would be birds that do dying shortly after going away to the Nationals, but from my experience they are very few and far between, not the "many " in Kaz's post. This could be for a numbers of reasons and the bird may have died anyway.

 

 

With respect to quarantine, I'm not a big fan of the elaborate procedures that are bandied around on this forum. Mine go back into a stock cage for a few days to week, where i keep an eye on them, then depending on how they fit into the breeding program they may go back into the flight or a breeding cage.

 

To get a bird selected into the national team is a great achievement, considering the myriad of problems that arise with breeding top quality Budgerigars. I think the positive side of our current National show arrangements are FAR outweighed by any negatives that Kaz has bought up.......

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I am not focussing on negatives Heathrow. I am merely asking questions. Its a discussion topic, not a "ban the Nationals" topic. No need to bristle over the mere mention of these things. I for one am all for the Nationals as well. But I dont go around with my ears shut either. I hear things within the clubs. People talk. I am only raising a subject that has and is being discussed around and about.

I wonder if theres a better way to transport and house the birds at the Nationals, or is it more of stress thing on the birds that affects how they cope with going to the Nationals ?

What procedures do some breeders employ when their birds come home ?

Edited by **KAZ**

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If mine were to go would do the same as Heath. Because really only sound healthy birds get picked to go to the Nationals.

I know that stress can bring out illness also, so when mine come home from a show they are put in stock cages and put on probotic and spark.

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Geez Kaz - talk about focus on the Negatives of our National show which is the pinnacle of our great hobby

 

My experience of having birds selected to represent Victorian at the Nationals has been extremely postitive.

All my birds that have gone away have come back in as good or better health than before they left, and all have gone on to breed successful for a number of years. The work the team carers do in getting the birds presented on the day is exemplary.

 

I find it hard to beleive that someone would be in position not to send there best possible birds and send lesser birds from a family - there isnt a breeder in the country who has that luxury!!!!

 

I'm sure there would be birds that do dying shortly after going away to the Nationals, but from my experience they are very few and far between, not the "many " in Kaz's post. This could be for a numbers of reasons and the bird may have died anyway.

 

 

With respect to quarantine, I'm not a big fan of the elaborate procedures that are bandied around on this forum. Mine go back into a stock cage for a few days to week, where i keep an eye on them, then depending on how they fit into the breeding program they may go back into the flight or a breeding cage.

 

To get a bird selected into the national team is a great achievement, considering the myriad of problems that arise with breeding top quality Budgerigars. I think the positive side of our current National show arrangements are FAR outweighed by any negatives that Kaz has bought up.......

 

Well said Heathrow,

 

I breed them to show and the Nationals is the big stage - nothing else counts. Our carers are among the best budgie people in the job. They won't risk transporting, let alone selecting birds that are of questionable health. It might be different in the "smaller" states.

 

Transport has to be practical. We can't send 70 odd birds in individual cages and a breeding cage mnakes a great quarrantine when they get back.

 

Why breed EXHIBITION budgies if you don't want to show them at the best show in the country????

 

Cheers

 

PT

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okay well as i am just a beginner

and really know nothing about the nationals bar you have to have good birds to be even looked at to get near even having a bird chosen to go state team

i have heard negative and positive

but admit more negative thoughts and views

 

im not putting birds into shield selections this year due few reasons

bar the obvious fact my birds were recently unwell and as im not certain of what they had or if they were even ill or just heavy molt or what ever happened i wont be risking others birds by showing mine as that's my respecting others hard work and effort i wont risk passing on any possible illness

one (my birds are no way near the quality or stranded required to be selected at level needed

 

two ( i as a beginner need two keep my best birds home this year to make sure that next year i actually may have a possible contender

 

three ( i really didn't like the idea of birds being driven off in a Ute in freezing cold weather as was case last year (even though the wear all facing each other as so the did not get chilled im gathering though that was not really a concern of the people more so than the securer stacking in of show cages or not knowing whom is actually caring for birds in-till the nationals or at them )

 

four ( i have been told by more than 25 breeders that yes many a bird has come home unwell and died very short after and yes ive heard the never breed theory also

 

i will in time be putting birds into the young bird shields as to win it you have to be in it

but i first want to build my stud to at least a better quality than i have before even going their

and i will be going to a higher person to actually find out the exact procedure of what happens and all that jazz so i am confidant my bird if ever i do get a contending bird is and will be well cared for

 

i do believe though that negative story's are circulated more due to the fact that they are negative

but you only need to look at auction catalogs to see some national winners go on to father or mother many a chick

so with that i say

really it is up to all us breeders to be honest in our birds quality of health yes some birds will be less amune than others to illness and well i guess that's just a risk we need to look at before deciphering weather or not we put our birds into be selected

however

auctions

and any show runs the same risk of stress and ability to trans pass illness between birds feather mites also

as i said its up to each breeders honesty and concern for others birds well being as well as their own

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Geez Kaz - talk about focus on the Negatives of our National show which is the pinnacle of our great hobby

 

My experience of having birds selected to represent Victorian at the Nationals has been extremely postitive.

All my birds that have gone away have come back in as good or better health than before they left, and all have gone on to breed successful for a number of years. The work the team carers do in getting the birds presented on the day is exemplary.

 

I find it hard to beleive that someone would be in position not to send there best possible birds and send lesser birds from a family - there isnt a breeder in the country who has that luxury!!!!

 

I'm sure there would be birds that do dying shortly after going away to the Nationals, but from my experience they are very few and far between, not the "many " in Kaz's post. This could be for a numbers of reasons and the bird may have died anyway.

 

 

With respect to quarantine, I'm not a big fan of the elaborate procedures that are bandied around on this forum. Mine go back into a stock cage for a few days to week, where i keep an eye on them, then depending on how they fit into the breeding program they may go back into the flight or a breeding cage.

 

To get a bird selected into the national team is a great achievement, considering the myriad of problems that arise with breeding top quality Budgerigars. I think the positive side of our current National show arrangements are FAR outweighed by any negatives that Kaz has bought up.......

 

Well said Heathrow,

 

I breed them to show and the Nationals is the big stage - nothing else counts. Our carers are among the best budgie people in the job. They won't risk transporting, let alone selecting birds that are of questionable health. It might be different in the "smaller" states.

 

Transport has to be practical. We can't send 70 odd birds in individual cages and a breeding cage mnakes a great quarrantine when they get back.

 

Why breed EXHIBITION budgies if you don't want to show them at the best show in the country????

 

Cheers

 

PT

 

agreed, some people on this forum believe in having birds put in quarantine for 6 weeks which is their choice i believe its excessive especially as you say the birds that get selected are usually at the top of their health, i have tried the quarantine game when buying new birds although i kept them separate for 3 weeks and then with the next lot only a couple of days and honestly it didnt make a difference to my existing stock or the new stock when you buy new birds you usually buy birds that are healthy anyway i realise that it doesnt mean they arent already carrying the bugs for sickness but i guess you cant protect birds 100% of the time if they get sick they get sick so be it. i would think it would be an honour to be selected to go to the nationals i know that i wouldnt hesitate to send birds if selected. some things you just cant help and with all of those birds sitting in a show whose to say there isnt airborne pathogens flying around anyway? im not trying to critisise people for their beliefs or opinions just adding my own:P

Edited by kochy23

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I'm all for the nationals and if I had a bird chosen it would be going with my prayers.

I do know of people who have lost birds after they have returned from them tho and they have been devastated at the loss of there best bird.

We can always improve on how things are done, and really thats what Kaz is asking us as show breeders.

It's great to have these discussions on our hobby, and I like seeing the passion members have when talking about it.

All the best to those sending birds this year and I'm sure Victoria will be the state to beat.

Edited by Taboo

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We can always improve on how things are done, and really thats what Kaz is asking us as show breeders.

 

 

 

At least you " get" where I was coming from :)

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ooh Kaz another taboo subject (to question the policies of the heirachy of the Nationals) I love it .

Everyone has a valid opinion and differing experiances , The societys should be interested in the welfare and experiances of the Exibiters and their birds that go to the Nationals . The questions you ask are valid and it should not be too hard for the Parent bodies to keep a record of them just relating to the Nationals. I for 1 have heard many stories some good some bad from exibiters . They come from their personal experiances and as a mainly spectator I often wonder how true or isolated they are . At least if there was a survey taken 6 to 12 months after the Show the state bodies would have some figures to quell what well may be old wives tales , they need facts and figures they can hang their hats on .

To do this would be a forward step in my opinion , Good on you Kaz for raising the subject that many only speak about in whispers in back rooms.

To take on some or all of the ideas put foreward would be a step foreward and progress . Now to get it from a forum level to the heads of the Societies .

 

Bubbles

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Well said Bubbles, and Kaz it is a good subject and debate, most of us are to scared to make our opinion in case some one attacks us, and it does happen more often than not on here.

I am for the Nationals, it is what every breeder breeds for but i to have been told and have read about losses after returning from the Nationals, The budgie News or the NSW budgie news not sure which one, a couple of years ago had something about the NSW team loosing a bird while in care by the carer before they left for the Nationals and so the reserve got called in.

A breeder from Melbourne told me personally that his Lacewing came home with NO toes. But then these are the negatives but there are also much more positives than negatives.

But it would be interesting if they did do a survey on all states to see how the birds vary after the Nationals for a period of 6 months like Bubbles said.

Keep the debate going.

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By all means have a discussion about the negatives and POSITIVES of the current national show. This discussion though should be based around hard empirical data - Not so called horror stories.

 

A number of breeders who have had birds represent there state have posted comments in a positive sense. Other posts have been 3rd hand stories.

 

I dont know how anyone could have read you 1st post and not seen the negativity, any discussion should be able to highlight good and bad points and back them up with facts , not heresay or shed talk. Surely this forum is about promoting the Hobby in a postiive light.

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By all means have a discussion about the negatives and POSITIVES of the current national show. This discussion though should be based around hard empirical data - Not so called horror stories.

 

A number of breeders who have had birds represent there state have posted comments in a positive sense. Other posts have been 3rd hand stories.

 

I dont know how anyone could have read you 1st post and not seen the negativity, any discussion should be able to highlight good and bad points and back them up with facts , not heresay or shed talk. Surely this forum is about promoting the Hobby in a postiive light.

 

This is a PUBLIC forum... there is nothing to say that information posted must be 'first hand experience'. (Your 3rd hand stories could also be applied to information handed down through the generations... so what your fathers' father told him about breeding etc... Does that mean we can't post this sort of information to help others?!?!) There is also nothing to say that problems with showing budgies, breeding budgies etc... can't be discussed. Isn't this how we LEARN???

 

This particular topic is a discussion and as posted in the first post...

 

This is just a curiosity question, hoping for open discussion, ideas, etc.

Edited by maesie
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By all means have a discussion about the negatives and POSITIVES of the current national show. This discussion though should be based around hard empirical data - Not so called horror stories.

 

A number of breeders who have had birds represent there state have posted comments in a positive sense. Other posts have been 3rd hand stories.

 

I dont know how anyone could have read you 1st post and not seen the negativity, any discussion should be able to highlight good and bad points and back them up with facts , not heresay or shed talk. Surely this forum is about promoting the Hobby in a postiive light.

 

This is a PUBLIC forum... there is nothing to say that information posted must be 'first hand experience'. (Your 3rd hand stories could also be applied to information handed down through the generations... so what your fathers' father told him about breeding etc... Does that mean we can't post this sort of information to help others?!?!) There is also nothing to say that problems with showing budgies, breeding budgies etc... can't be discussed. Isn't this how we LEARN???

 

This particular topic is a discussion and as posted in the first post...

 

This is just a curiosity question, hoping for open discussion, ideas, etc.

It's seem to only be a Public Forum when posts are in agreeance with the moderators!!!!!!!!!

 

Also when the questions is as specfic as

 

"How many birds get sick along the way ?" or

"How many good birds go off to the nationals and return and die ?"or

"How many successfully breed afterwards ?"or

"Is there any facts kept on this situations or do breeders just accept certain losses ? "

 

it is seeking information that to give an accurate picture, needs to first hand knowledge, otherwise more Bullshit stories abound.

 

We dont learn anything from stories that cannot be verified and are heresay!!!!!!

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By all means have a discussion about the negatives and POSITIVES of the current national show. This discussion though should be based around hard empirical data - Not so called horror stories.

 

A number of breeders who have had birds represent there state have posted comments in a positive sense. Other posts have been 3rd hand stories.

 

I dont know how anyone could have read you 1st post and not seen the negativity, any discussion should be able to highlight good and bad points and back them up with facts , not heresay or shed talk. Surely this forum is about promoting the Hobby in a postiive light.

 

The positives of the Budgerigar Nationals speak for themselves. The very best of Australia's show budgies brought together in competition with each other to decide on which breeders have bred what is considered the best budgies of their type in Australia at the time.

Other positives............a great collection of likeminded breeders brought together in one place for fellowship and social interaction and discussions. A place and time to meet and form lasting friendships within the fraternity.

Most likely many more positives.

I didnt open a topic to discuss the glory of the Nationals. I enjoy the nationals myself and have attended. We show breeders all aim for a bird that makes it and would send it off to be judged along with the rest.

 

As stated I began this particular topic as a discussion and as posted in the first post...

 

This is just a curiosity question, hoping for open discussion, ideas, etc.

 

If such things pertaining to our shows and show budgie conditions were never discussed at any level then we would never have had any changes. We have had many changes over the years.................ring issue dates, drinker in cages, seed in cages, perch sizes etc etc. All these things brought about by discussing it and bringing it forward for the betterment of the hobby and for the sake and health of the birds.

Simple discussion begin this way, unless someone takes offence, decides its a negative attack instead of a general inquiry and discussion point......and goes so far off on a tangent that no discussion actually takes place. Then it becomes he said she said stuff and finger pointing and lots of outrage and defense mechanisms in place.

 

By all means have a discussion about the negatives and POSITIVES of the current national show.

Havent seen any discussion thus far, just defense and outrage that I dared simply pose a question. My intent was never to pose a negative slant on the nationals. I was haoping for some discussion. Didnt get that.

This discussion though should be based around hard empirical data - Not so called horror stories.

 

The dictionary definition of empirical evidence is evidence relating to or based on experience or observation.

 

I am basing my knowledge on accounts from breeders who did have birds in the nationals and NOT third hand horror stories or shed talk.

 

First-hand knowledge

Adj & adv

1. From the original source; direct or directly first-hand news he got the news first-hand

At first hand from the original source; directly

 

 

Immediacy of experience

Someone able to recount an event they witnessed or took part in has "first hand experience". First hand experience of the "you had to be there" variety can seem especially valuable and privileged, but it often remains potentially subject to errors in sense-perception and in personal interpretation.

 

Second-hand experience can offer richer resources: recorded and/or summarised from first-hand observers or experiencers or from instruments, and potentially expressing multiple points of view.

 

Third-hand experience, based on indirect and possibly unreliable rumour or hearsay, can (even given reliable accounts) potentially stray perilously close to blind honouring of authority.

 

 

 

A number of breeders who have had birds represent there state have posted comments in a positive sense.

 

A number ? there has been one admitted Nationals breeder/shower post ....You

 

and Chookbreeder I also know is a Nationals breeder/shower but he didnt say he was.

 

so A number here equals TWO ??

 

Other posts have been 3rd hand stories.

 

ASSUMPTION on your part.

 

What I know is called straight from the horses mouth, not third hand and not shed talk

 

any discussion should be able to highlight good and bad points and back them up with facts

 

so far no discussion as such..........waiting.

 

Surely this forum is about promoting the Hobby in a postiive light.

 

This forum began its beginnings as a pet budgie forum. We are changing the tide by degrees. A great many members here are show breeders. We all endeavour to present good knowledge and info on this forum. Some try harder than others. Some seek out good articles and interviews to keep the forum interesting. Some visit and use this place as a source of amusement and something to ridicule without putting all that much back into it.

 

If we dont discuss and provide info and educate the up and coming budgie breeders of tomorrow...........if we dont put a little bit back into the " well" , where will we drink from in the future ??

 

No wonder so many clubs these days struggle to get members and to keep them. If inquiring minds and questions are squashed and suffocated, if mentoring isnt implemented, if knowledge sharing isnt employed in a fostering caring way and not treated like secret society the hobby will belong to the big boys with the bucks and it will become a dollar sport and not a hobby at all.

 

 

It's seem to only be a Public Forum when posts are in agreeance with the moderators!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I am sorry you feel the need to go off on a tangent like this. Since a previous PM discussion between you and I regarding a moderation issue in another topic occurred it must be said you seem to have a grievance with me which has a whole lot more to do with the way this topic is heading than anything else. :blink:

Edited by **KAZ**

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GO NSW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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GO NSW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D I am sure NSW will do well :D

 

 

 

 

 

and to rephrase everything............

 

 

 

Would there be a better way to transport birds to the nationals than currently exists.

 

I.E. a better designed transport cage ?

 

Does each state have the same design cages ?

 

As each holding cage is made for the nationals ....can these holding cages be better designed than they are ?

 

Doesnt anyone have any ideas or input on these things without seeing negatives in it all ?

 

This is all simple question and answer stuff without the need for people to get so hot under the collar about perceived negativities.

 

If the topic is so hard then maybe I should just close it.

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Come on Kaz - read your questions again. There is a definite slant to them. A bit like a TV current affairs show. Not withstanding that, I agree with Heathrows request for some objective information not chinese whispers. For the record, I have had 12 birds go the Nationals. 5 did not breed on their return. 3 birds went to Rockhampton last year. The Grey Green and Fallow both died in the breeding cage although they did breed. The green has not filled an egg yet. Is this because they went to the Nationals? I think not!

Only half of out birds breed at any point in time and I am sure we notice it more when the good ones don't breed. If a plane ride meant that a bird was less likely to breed then there would be no birds submitted for auctions by interstate breeders!

With regard to the point about sending lesser birds from the family - the "I've got a better one at home" syndrome - all I can think of is wanker! No one in Victoria can afford to send a lesser one as it would be lucky to make the team given the level of competition.

 

Cheers

 

PT

 

 

 

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There will always be a slant to a written statement in comparison to a face to face conversation. Thats the hardest thing sometimes about getting a point across and getting your mucking words fuddled up :D

 

I appreciate your input .............. :)

 

 

There is obviously a lot of stress on these birds and that can all be a part of what follows. How well they cope.

 

Yes.....those that wont send their best for fear of losing them are stupid as why have what may be a better bird at home if only you are going to see it ? Yes, there are a few like that who feel that way. Why have an aim if you dont acchieve a goal ?

Is there some ground roots basic fixes that can make it easier on the birds ? Whether it be caging, transport or just before and after care ?

 

 

These are the simple things I wished for discussion when opening this topic regardless of the direction the topic took or perceptions of my intentions by others.

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I wont go the early Crow,as we haven't,picked the team for the Mighty "V"

That happens this coming Sunday.But we will be there with all Guns firing

& there will be no. holding back birds,because the might get this or that.

They will be there to take no prisoners.

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I had my first bird picked for the Western Australian State team in 1985. I have never lost a bird that has been selected.

 

I dont spend a lot of time training my birds. However, I do house them in a holding cage for a couple of weeks beforehand to just settle them down.

 

On return I quarantine them for say two weeks. Give them some Spark/NV Powder.

 

I dont put them down to breed.

 

If I held them up too long beforehand on their return they will fall apart into a moult that was due in March/April. They would then struggle through the winter trying to recover and most likely die. That is the biggest risk peopke have.

 

I have only ever not in a bird that I thought wold have done well and I regret it very much. Its bloody hard to breed birds that consistently on the top bench at Nationals and well done to the people that do.

 

Thats my two bobs worth.

 

P.S. sorry I havent been on here lately. Just returned from UK/Paris.........

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All the birds I've had selected have been fine. Some came back a bit lighter but mostly they were in better condition when they returned than when they left. Having seen the facilities first hand and watched the care that all team carers put into the birds during the weekend of the Nationals as well as the week leading up to it, I'd say that although there are inherent risks in any situation where birds are grouped and travelled, they are minimised to the greatest extent possible.

 

I know there are some people who will not take birds to the selections as they are concerned about birds travelling and I do know there have been some sickness issues and some unforseen deaths (a substantial proportion of Tassies whole team got wiped out by what was suspected to be gassing when a luggage handler placed the travel cage down by a running luggage cart whilst unloading the rest of the luggage) but these are few and far between.

 

Considering that most flocks of birds in the country would have all of the common diseases (due to purchasing exposed birds, native bird exposure, going to other peoples aviaries and not disinfecting ourselves etc etc etc) I don't believe that the risks are that high that you'll bring anything particular back from the Nats that you won't already have. Now if there was a major outbreak of some NEW introduced disease, well that WOULD be different. But as it stands today, so long as you provide good supportive nutrition, force a full moult before they go (by moving them into another holding area a few months before the selections) and ensure health status is good before they go then all should be well.

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Thank you Jeff and Nubbly, they are good comments and information. All I have to do now is the hardest thing, breed birds that get picked for the Nationals, won't happen this year or next, I have no bird for the Shield this weekend, they are still moulting, pin feathers and blood on heads etc.

Good luck for all those that get their birds to the Nationals this year. BUT

 

Go Victoria :P

Edited by splat

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