Genetics

[Ino 0]

I have been reading about Utilising Genomics in the latest Holstein Journal.

We pair a full brother and sister together, Based on pedigree we are assuming that we are inbreeding, but with the genes make up of each we could be outcrossing.

Also the same could be said about outcrossing on pedigree, the gene make up of each could make it inbreeding.

Genetics in the Dairy World is moving at a very fast rate.

I will be going to a Genomics Day in Melbourne on the 5th of May, will be very interesting.

 

 

[splat 0]

Hey Merv, is that because even though they are full brother sister, their gentic make up could get different parts of there ancestors which aren't related. mmmmmm headache, you know I am not into genetics, gives me a headache.

But is that what you are talking about, like when you mate say half/ half sister and you are working on a line and you are hoping say the father genes to come through but the mothers can instead OR the mothers mother, something like that.

Edited April 20, 2011 by **KAZ**

[Dave_McMinn 0]

You are right there is always the potential for normal birds, but you are greatly increasing the risk of birds born with deformities.

 

i suppose it comes down to what is more important to you and how willing you are to take the risk. There are a lot of things that go on in many animal industries that are not talked about at the dinner table, so to speak.

[RIPbudgies 0]

You are right there is always the potential for normal birds, but you are greatly increasing the risk of birds born with deformities.

 

i suppose it comes down to what is more important to you and how willing you are to take the risk. There are a lot of things that go on in many animal industries that are not talked about at the dinner table, so to speak.

 

Dave inbreeding in itself is not the cause of deformities. Deformities can be appear in complety unrelated individuals. Cause of deformities are also not necessarily genetic but can be cause through error at any point in the creation of the organisim.

 

The pairing of closely related individuals is required to increase potency of particular genetic traits. However having said that it can also produce traits which you are not after but you don't know what you are going to get untill you do it.

 

Currently amongst the pairs I have started breeding for 2011 is the following closely related individuals.

 

brother and sister (both are progeny of the father in the next pairing)

daughter to father

granddaughter to grandfather (Sire line)

[nubbly5 0]

I have found the "potential" for normal birds so far has far outweighed the "potential" for deformities.

 

Inbreeding concentrates the number of similar genes and reduces genetic diversity amongst individuals. An interesting book on pedigree dogs indicates that most pedigree dogs breed have very little genetic difference between individuals within breeds as over the years inbreeding has been carried out to such an extreme to concentrate certain traits (squashed faces, coat types etc etc). The issue really is that as RIP mentioned you are not aware of the "unwanted traits" that are also being concentrated at the same time.

 

It really is not like your whole stud is going to collapse because you have paired a brother and sister together. There is a very small chance that you are going to see something unwanted (like feather dusters for that matter) but most likely not, especially if you've paired a brother and sister from a pair that was genetically very different in the first place.

 

The only thing that I have been thinking of recently though is I wonder how much genetic difference is already within our budgerigar population. Maybe not very much considering how they have developed over time.

[Ino 0]

I have found the "potential" for normal birds so far has far outweighed the "potential" for deformities.

 

Inbreeding concentrates the number of similar genes and reduces genetic diversity amongst individuals. An interesting book on pedigree dogs indicates that most pedigree dogs breed have very little genetic difference between individuals within breeds as over the years inbreeding has been carried out to such an extreme to concentrate certain traits (squashed faces, coat types etc etc). The issue really is that as RIP mentioned you are not aware of the "unwanted traits" that are also being concentrated at the same time.

 

It really is not like your whole stud is going to collapse because you have paired a brother and sister together. There is a very small chance that you are going to see something unwanted (like feather dusters for that matter) but most likely not, especially if you've paired a brother and sister from a pair that was genetically very different in the first place.

 

The only thing that I have been thinking of recently though is I wonder how much genetic difference is already within our budgerigar population. Maybe not very much considering how they have developed over time.

 

Hi RIP,

When you start talking about deformities you are getting into the process of EPIGENETICS. Genes that might be passed to the next generation in a switched-on or switched-off state.

[Budgeman 0]

Hi RIP,

When you start talking about deformities you are getting into the process of EPIGENETICS. Genes that might be passed to the next generation in a switched-on or switched-off state.

 

Inbreeding has always been misunderstood by many fanciers in birds and in other forms of livestock.

Inbreeding brings both the GOOD and the BAD to the surface - i.e. the points you want to fix and the points you want to eliminate.

 

It is all about selection and HARD selection. You need to also select for the traits that are not visible - meaning for vigour, fertility, egg production, longevity etc.

 

There was a breeder in South Africa many years ago who put a lot of focus on inbreeding because he could no longer import stock from the UK - Dr Alfred Robertson.

If you look up very early copies of Budgerigar World there are some excellent articles printed (a series of three from memory) that highlight his approach, techniques and results.

 

I will see if I can dig up the issues.

 

Cheers,

 

JS

 

Budgerigar World Edition 33 to Edition 41 Articles by Gerald Binks on Inbreeding.

Edited April 20, 2011 by **KAZ**

[RIPbudgies 0]

I was not raising the deformity issue but rather addressing a post to which the this issue had be posed in the light that it always is, that being bad and negative and don't do it type stuff. Maybe read the whole thread to see what I was referring too.

 

Budgeman I am well aquainted with the writings of Robertson. I have Budgerigar world issues from the beginning through to about 2002 from memory.

[chookbreeder9 0]

I have been reading about Utilising Genomics in the latest Holstein Journal.

We pair a full brother and sister together, Based on pedigree we are assuming that we are inbreeding, but with the genes make up of each we could be outcrossing.

Also the same could be said about outcrossing on pedigree, the gene make up of each could make it inbreeding.

Genetics in the Dairy World is moving at a very fast rate.

I will be going to a Genomics Day in Melbourne on the 5th of May, will be very interesting.

 

 

 

Hi Ino,

 

It's good to see that people will be attending this conference. The producer day on the 5th should be a good day.

 

I am going to the same conference and speaking on the Wednesday afternoon.

 

When we evaluate inbreeding we ASSUME that the offspring in question have inherited 50% of the genes of both parents. The reality is that they (the brothers and sisters) have inherited 50% from both parents but it is not the same 50% from each parent. To say we are outcrossing is a stretch, however the level of inbreeding may not be as high as the conventional pedigree estimation of inbreeding suggests. Likewise as you point out, the mating of related individuals may not in certain circumstances, result in a high level of inbreeding although on average it will.

 

Genomic technology as applied in the dairy industry is allowing us to identify with some degree of accuracy, what each animal has inherited from each parent. We (Genetics Australia) are working with the Dairy CRC to establish advanced mating programs that look at what chromosome segements have been inherited from the sire and what has been inherited from the dam allowing us to get a better handle on the actual level of inbreeding in an individual.

 

The bottom line for budgies is, we do not have this sort of technology and therefore we need to rely on pedigrees. My mentor (one of the world's leading dairy geneticists) always reminded me that most organisms (including humans) carried between 2 and 5 lethal recessive genetic defects. The reason we don't marry our cousins or sisters is that they are more likely to carry the same defects. There is a fair chance that was has become a social more has been derived through a process of "trial and error" by our ancestors (you need to travel to the next valley to find a wife). The budgie job is no different. That dosen't mean that mating brother to sister or father to daughter won't work, however the chance of getting "nuffies" s greatly increased from these matings is greatly enhanced as is the chance of getting some crackers.

 

By the way, inbreeding in all species leads to a reduction in vigour, longevity and fertility.

 

Risk v reward - good luck!

 

Cheers,

 

PT

Edited April 20, 2011 by chookbreeder9

[splat 0]

This thread is very interesting, keep it coming.

[Heathrow 0]

The risk with pairing so close in Budgies isnt that great - if they turn out to be "nuffies' they get culled, on the other hand you have a cracker Budgie. I assume with Dairy cattle that the risks are significantly greater and would take a lot longer to rectify.

[chookbreeder9 0]

The risk with pairing so close in Budgies isnt that great - if they turn out to be "nuffies' they get culled, on the other hand you have a cracker Budgie. I assume with Dairy cattle that the risks are significantly greater and would take a lot longer to rectify.

 

 

Good to hear from you Heathrow.

 

You are correct culling a nuffie budgie that has 3 or 4 okay siblings is no big deal. Losing a heifer calf potentially worth $1200 is a different story not to mention the effect of reduced fertlity and reduced milk production in the seemingly "normal" ones.

 

You also have to consider the long term progress of the breed, When you reduce genetic variation (one of the consequences of inbreeding) you reduce the potential for gentic progress by making the population more homozygous.

 

Inbreeding is a tool that needs to be used sensibly and judicously.

 

Cheers

 

PT

[Heathrow 0]

The risk with pairing so close in Budgies isnt that great - if they turn out to be "nuffies' they get culled, on the other hand you have a cracker Budgie. I assume with Dairy cattle that the risks are significantly greater and would take a lot longer to rectify.

 

 

Good to hear from you Heathrow.

 

You are correct culling a nuffie budgie that has 3 or 4 okay siblings is no big deal. Losing a heifer calf potentially worth $1200 is a different story not to mention the effect of reduced fertlity and reduced milk production in the seemingly "normal" ones.

 

You also have to consider the long term progress of the breed, When you reduce genetic variation (one of the consequences of inbreeding) you reduce the potential for gentic progress by making the population more homozygous.

 

Inbreeding is a tool that needs to be used sensibly and judicously.

 

Cheers

 

PT

 

The last line is the key, all breeding methods are tools which used correctly can be of great benefit, used incorrectly they are train wrecks.

[Finnie 0]

You are right there is always the potential for normal birds, but you are greatly increasing the risk of birds born with deformities.

 

i suppose it comes down to what is more important to you and how willing you are to take the risk. There are a lot of things that go on in many animal industries that are not talked about at the dinner table, so to speak.

 

Dave inbreeding in itself is not the cause of deformities. Deformities can be appear in complety unrelated individuals. Cause of deformities are also not necessarily genetic but can be cause through error at any point in the creation of the organisim.

 

 

THANK YOU! THANK YOU, RIP

 

for bringing this up! (And also to the rest who also addressed this.)

 

I've been getting very tired lately of reading a lot of people saying "Oh no! Inbred! Throw the eggs away before you get a deformed chick!" (Other places than here.)

 

When that is not how genetics works at all, but people don't understand the intricacies of cell division and DNA replication. (Not saying I do all that well, I only remember a little bit from college days.)

 

But it sounds like we are hearing from some actual experts,here, and it is very informative.

 

Can't wait to learn more!

[Guest K&M Breeding]

You are right there is always the potential for normal birds, but you are greatly increasing the risk of birds born with deformities.

 

i suppose it comes down to what is more important to you and how willing you are to take the risk. There are a lot of things that go on in many animal industries that are not talked about at the dinner table, so to speak.

 

Dave inbreeding in itself is not the cause of deformities. Deformities can be appear in complety unrelated individuals. Cause of deformities are also not necessarily genetic but can be cause through error at any point in the creation of the organisim.

 

 

THANK YOU! THANK YOU, RIP

 

for bringing this up! (And also to the rest who also addressed this.)

 

I've been getting very tired lately of reading a lot of people saying "Oh no! Inbred! Throw the eggs away before you get a deformed chick!" (Other places than here.)

 

When that is not how genetics works at all, but people don't understand the intricacies of cell division and DNA replication. (Not saying I do all that well, I only remember a little bit from college days.)

 

But it sounds like we are hearing from some actual experts,here, and it is very informative.

 

Can't wait to learn more!

 

 

but its not always safe to breed related birds

 

I did it on accident didn't know they were related until after the fact and I still don't know if it was brother/sister or mom/son or what But they had 1 baby and it was 100% ********* it is the only way to explain it It would sit there and spin its head in circles then run to the front of the cage then turn and run to the back then hop on the perch and do the head spin again ALL DAY EVERY DAY --- I've raised A LOT of birds and NEVER seen it before It did it 24/7 except when it was asleep

I've bred the same 2 parents with different mates and its never happened again

 

I've seen enough pictures and read enough stories of brother & sisters being bred or moms n sons or dads n daughters etc The babies are born with out eyes, with out a leg, missing a wing. the are born with parts of their bodies open (like their belly would have a big "hole" that never closes"

[Ino 0]

Good to hear to from you all.

Sorry, I was not having a go at you RIP.

I just wrote what i read in the HOLSTEIN JOURNAL by Dr Jennie Pryce and Dr Ben Hayes of Victoria's DPI.

I did not thick you could get a outcross from a brother and sister mating either.

[Ino 0]

Here we go.

 

Utilising Genomics

Mate Allocation

 

Selection of sires and how much of each sire to use within a herd is the major deciding factor in the rate of genetin gain. The allocation of individual sires to individual cows can, though, have an effect via inbreeding.

Inbreeding causes a reduction in animal performance via "inbreeding depression" , this is especially so in fitness traits like fertility and survival. An economic value for each 1 per cent for inbreeding can be calculated. With this in mind, to optimise matings farmers can allocate sires to cows with the aim of maximising the equation of profit minus the inbreeding cost of the mating (profit in this case fefers to Australian Pofit Ranking (APR). Currently farmers manage inbreeding using pedigree informationand the assumption that animals get a random half of their genetics from each parent, and that full siblings for instance share on average 50 per cent of the same genes. Realistically, the actual percentage of the same genes shared by full siblings can vary in extreme cases from 100 per cent of the same genes (identical twins) to zero per cent (almost impossible in animal breeding).

Genomic information for the selected sires and each cow in the herd could be matched to identify actually how similar each pair was rather than assuming similarity based on pedigree. This would significantly improve the prediction of the inbreeding of matings. In some cases it may mean a cow could be mated to a closely related sire because they are more different than pedigree indicates. It may also result in no mating because a sire and dam thought to be unrelated are more related than their pedigree indicates.

 

Dr Jennie Pryce and Dr Ben Hayes, DPI, Victoria.

 

P.S Gets you thinking.

Holstein Journal, April - May, 2011.

[splat 0]

 

 

 

but its not always safe to breed related birds

 

I did it on accident didn't know they were related until after the fact and I still don't know if it was brother/sister or mom/son or what But they had 1 baby and it was 100% ********* it is the only way to explain it It would sit there and spin its head in circles then run to the front of the cage then turn and run to the back then hop on the perch and do the head spin again ALL DAY EVERY DAY --- I've raised A LOT of birds and NEVER seen it before It did it 24/7 except when it was asleep

I've bred the same 2 parents with different mates and its never happened again

 

I've seen enough pictures and read enough stories of brother & sisters being bred or moms n sons or dads n daughters etc The babies are born with out eyes, with out a leg, missing a wing. the are born with parts of their bodies open (like their belly would have a big "hole" that never closes"

 

Sounds like you bred a stargazer with a nervous problem and probably nothing to with them being related, or it could of being a throw back, a one off thing.

Edited April 21, 2011 by **KAZ**

[chookbreeder9 0]

but its not always safe to breed related birds

 

I did it on accident didn't know they were related until after the fact and I still don't know if it was brother/sister or mom/son or what But they had 1 baby and it was 100% ********* it is the only way to explain it It would sit there and spin its head in circles then run to the front of the cage then turn and run to the back then hop on the perch and do the head spin again ALL DAY EVERY DAY --- I've raised A LOT of birds and NEVER seen it before It did it 24/7 except when it was asleep

I've bred the same 2 parents with different mates and its never happened again

 

I've seen enough pictures and read enough stories of brother & sisters being bred or moms n sons or dads n daughters etc The babies are born with out eyes, with out a leg, missing a wing. the are born with parts of their bodies open (like their belly would have a big "hole" that never closes"

 

Sounds like you bred a stargazer with a nervous problem and probably nothing to with them being related, or it could of being a throw back, a one off thing.

 

Hi Splatty,

 

The fact that it is a "stargazer" (asuming that it is a defect with a genetic basis which I am guessing it is) is more likely to be a result of mating related birds than anything else. Most defects are recessive simply because the dominant ones weed themselves out, especially if they are lethal.

 

Cheers

 

PT

[Guest K&M Breeding]

every start gazer I've ever seen keeps their head tilted back towards their back looking up at all times

this is what I always see when some one has a Star gazer I know its a love bird its just to show and this isn't even the worst case I've seen

 

he never did - other then the constant head spinning and running back and forth looking like he was banging his head off the cage(but wasn't) he looked 100% normal

 

Here is a picture of him when he was a baby - With his "lil" buddy - I don't ever recommend housing a lovebird and a budgie together these 2 grew up together from 3 weeks old and were friends But I never left them unsupervised they each had their own cage for times I couldn't be with them

 

The only time he didn't do it was when he was playing out side of the cage with his buddy If he was in his cage like when I put him in for bedtime he'd start doing it No matter what cage size or style it was

 

http://i2.photobucke...0Mystic/065.jpg

Edited April 21, 2011 by K&M Breeding

[splat 0]

Thanks Chooky. hey I bred a star gazer last year and they were out crosses. It was only a minor case, meaning she only had her head up looking now and again. I actually treated her and she is totally normal now.

[Ino 0]

Please remember i have the word chance in my Topic starter, may be i should of put CHANCE.

There is more in the Journal on Genes but we will leave it at that.

[Ino 0]

For breeders that are interested in Avian Genetics, one site to go to is aviangenetics.com

When i pressed on Basic Genetics and then on Genetic Myths, what did i read, well i'll leave it up to you to read.

I would like to here your thoughts.

[**KAZ** 0]

Please remember i have the word chance in my Topic starter, may be i should of put CHANCE.

There is more in the Journal on Genes but we will leave it at that.

please explain

[Ino 0]

Sorry Kaz,

The word is COULD not chance.

 

I keep trying to brush that insect thats on my screen.