Best In Show...df Spangle And Ubc

[renee 0]

I agree with Nubbly too, and I dont understand why Renee is STILL SAYING she will wait and see after its first moult

 

The reason I have taken the wait and see approach is simple, it is my way of saying "whatever!"

 

I will repeat myself, I thought it was a Dark Green Normal but then I was approached separately on the day by 2 Open breeders who were convinced that She was a Aussie YF. As one of them actually intentionally breeds the blighters I believed what I was told.

 

In addition someone recently took home what I thought was a Normal Green but they were convinced that it was a Golden Face ...

 

So I will put my hand up and say "Yes, I find this subject confusing and do not think I can identify these birds easily". And when you are told that they are a Non Standard Variety you tend to think that breeding them is a bit iffy 'cause you are always encouraged to breed Standard Varieties.

[JimmyBanks 0]

I've given up on understanding any of the YF genes... I hope I never have to deal with them

[RIPbudgies 0]

The article linked in 2 parts below goes a fair way to clearing things up. But you may need to read it over a few times:

 

http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface01.html

 

http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface02.html

 

Daryl, whilst I agree the article is brilliant it will not clear this issue up. It has been posted here and other forums many times yet the problem still persists to this day as this thread testifies. Also the article is beyond most people. You need to have a fairly good grasp of genetics. It also helps to know a little of feather structure and how it can affect what we see. The most important thing I feel one must do when reading this article is to keep a fresh persepctive and rid ones mind about what you have been fed over the years.

 

Goldenface is my specialist variety. I was breeding them for twenty years. I was at first fed a lot of information on these birds...some good, some not so good. Having an inquiring scientific type brain I was able to make sense of all I was told and I also did my research which led me to other breeders like Ken Gray (UK), Gordon Davis (USA) and a few in Australia too. I had a 100 plus books in my budgie collection some of which are extremely difficult to find but they do help find some missing pieces to the puzzle.

 

One also, and I repeat myself here again, must look at the show standard as just that a standard. In any showing arena there is always a breed standard. It describes what we would like to see, not neccessarily what is correct or what was normal. Remember humans are the greatest manipulators. Yellowfaces have had many ups and downs on the show bench, mostly due to a complete ignornace of the variety. Top breeders and judges don't like it when their egos are smashed cause some upstart comes along and tells them they are wrong.

 

Renee has encountered a real problem. This is the same problem faced by myself back in the early 80's. So what has changed.....NOTHING. I benched a lovely Dark Green hen UBC and was told it was a Goldenface. When I tried to explain to them (judges/show manager) that they were the ones who were wrong I got told what would I know having only bred budgies for a couple of years. Length of time spent in the hobby, grade elevations obtained, awards won and other acheivements does not mean you know your stuff. I know of a few so called top breeders in this state (WA) that have been breeding, judging, showmangering and stewarding that don't know s%#t about genetics or variety recognition, yet there are a few beginners who dare I say it, have more knowledge in these areas than they.

[renee 0]

okay, Here is another "surprise" .... Is it a YF? Your guess is just as good as mine

 

This one comes out of a pairing of 2 Alder birds I bought earlier in the year when Carl did his cull. Now I was hoping for a DF White Spangle as both parents are Grey Spangles .... and this is what I got (no complaints about the bird though, I am VERY fond of it!)

As soon as it feathered up it was a beautiful sea green, don't know if the photo does it justice but it is a VERY pretty bird.

 

[GenericBlue 0]

:rofl: :rofl: good idea kaz

 

 

just to say i was wrong also as the yf is classed as split yf in a green bird as green is dominant over yf

and in blue the blue is rececive to yf and yf domonaint over the blue

and their right their is where i go :rofl: how ever i understand it myself just cant explain

but as long as i keep breeding my own df agf im all good

 

need a cobalt or mauve hen in show stock before i can breed my agf sky blue boy

and going to take a while to get it to df form as he is single factor so

....but thats the fun isnt it

[RIPbudgies 0]

I agree with Nubbly too, and I dont understand why Renee is STILL SAYING she will wait and see after its first moult

 

The reason I have taken the wait and see approach is simple, it is my way of saying "whatever!"

 

I will repeat myself, I thought it was a Dark Green Normal but then I was approached separately on the day by 2 Open breeders who were convinced that She was a Aussie YF. As one of them actually intentionally breeds the blighters I believed what I was told.

 

In addition someone recently took home what I thought was a Normal Green but they were convinced that it was a Golden Face ...

 

So I will put my hand up and say "Yes, I find this subject confusing and do not think I can identify these birds easily". And when you are told that they are a Non Standard Variety you tend to think that breeding them is a bit iffy 'cause you are always encouraged to breed Standard Varieties.

 

 

Renee all I can say is that if one of these people breeds them intentionally and then tells you a UBC Dark Green is a GF is an idiot. A UBC GF as nubbs already informed you does not show suffusion as a baby. They appear just the same as a double factor GF does.

 

To the person who took home a Normal Green thinking it was a GF. Feel sorry for them. They have probably believed the rubbish that they tried to feed you. Ask them down the track how they when breeding with it.

 

Renee if you want to learn more about GF I am happy to teach you. That goes for others who wish to know. I plan at some time to get a bunch of us together at a BBQ for example and look at this topic. I have a white board in which we can doodle on. Let me know if you would be interested. I can also come down to your place and look at any birds you are not sure about what they are.

[**KAZ** 0]

Renee if you want to learn more about GF I am happy to teach you. That goes for others who wish to know. I plan at some time to get a bunch of us together at a BBQ for example and look at this topic. I have a white board in which we can doodle on. Let me know if you would be interested. I can also come down to your place and look at any birds you are not sure about what they are.

 

 

YES PLEASE

[RIPbudgies 0]

okay, Here is another "surprise" .... Is it a YF? Your guess is just as good as mine

 

This one comes out of a pairing of 2 Alder birds I bought earlier in the year when Carl did his cull. Now I was hoping for a DF White Spangle as both parents are Grey Spangles .... and this is what I got (no complaints about the bird though, I am VERY fond of it!)

As soon as it feathered up it was a beautiful sea green, don't know if the photo does it justice but it is a VERY pretty bird.

 

 

 

The photo is not really good enough to say, sorry.

 

Are you sure that the parents were both grey spangles. Could one of them have been a mauve GF spangle. Sometimes single factor GF Mauves are mistaken for greys.

 

What colour was this bird as a baby?

[renee 0]

Renee if you want to learn more about GF I am happy to teach you. That goes for others who wish to know. I plan at some time to get a bunch of us together at a BBQ for example and look at this topic. I have a white board in which we can doodle on. Let me know if you would be interested. I can also come down to your place and look at any birds you are not sure about what they are.

 

 

YES PLEASE

 

I am SO there! And I am free this week end, was planning on going over to Kaz's any way to help ... can I be so bold as to suggest we all meet up?!!!!

[GenericBlue 0]

okay, Here is another "surprise" .... Is it a YF? Your guess is just as good as mine

 

This one comes out of a pairing of 2 Alder birds I bought earlier in the year when Carl did his cull. Now I was hoping for a DF White Spangle as both parents are Grey Spangles .... and this is what I got (no complaints about the bird though, I am VERY fond of it!)

As soon as it feathered up it was a beautiful sea green, don't know if the photo does it justice but it is a VERY pretty bird.

 

 

 

The photo is not really good enough to say, sorry.

 

Are you sure that the parents were both grey spangles. Could one of them have been a mauve GF spangle. Sometimes single factor GF Mauves are mistaken for greys.

 

What colour was this bird as a baby?

 

 

 

 

 

snap lol my thoughts

 

 

 

oh and dont start with out me although i will take a while to walk their

Edited November 18, 2009 by GenericBlue

[renee 0]

The photo is not really good enough to say, sorry. Are you sure that the parents were both grey spangles. Could one of them have been a mauve GF spangle. Sometimes single factor GF Mauves are mistaken for greys.What colour was this bird as a baby?

This one was always a lovely sea green from the moment it feathered up. I recall thinking "damn, what I am I going to put you to?" when I saw it. I suspect that it would totally suffuse any chicks if I tried to breed DFs, so I am stumped for now .... may still end up a 'bird to be sold' though I do like it too much to contemplate that for now. :fear As for the whole mauve/olive thingio, have yet to get my head around that as this year I was concentrating on breeding Dark Factors and I think you need DF dark factors for those ... so again I stress, haven't got there yet with those yet. Best you come and have a look!

Best you come and have a look!

Your inbox is full RIP, time to delete some!

[RIPbudgies 0]

Your inbox is full RIP, time to delete some!

 

You are right Renee. You wish is my command :fear

Edited November 18, 2009 by KAZ

[renee 0]

Your inbox is full RIP, time to delete some!

 

You are right Renee. You wish is my command

:fear

[**KAZ** 0]

Your inbox is full RIP, time to delete some!

 

STAFF have a bottomless inbox....we dont have this "problem" :hap: :yes: :fear

[nubbly5 0]

memememememememememememememe - I'd LOOOOOOVE to do a budgie girl barbie with all you super budgie girlies. (Gina scurries off to look at her diary). What day, what day? I have someone coming here on Saturday but I've gotta be in Perth Sunday to fly out sparrow's fart Monday morning - can bring some stuff to eat.

[nubbly5 0]

Aussie Mutant II please explain Renee by what you mean here. There is no such thing. The term "Mutant" is used with the other two Yellowface varieties. The aussie one is just referred to as Goldenface in either single or double factor form.

 

The problem has come about by one of our most prominent breeders calling a single factor australian yf (or goldenface in other words) an Aussie YF mutant 2 - bloody confusing. Really they are just referring to the single factor bird that has the very strong suffusion. It's because of that strong suffusion that WA judges in their immense wisdom decided to put the single factor aussie yf in the NSV/NSC class as it was considered that these birds were too far from the YF standard.

[renee 0]

Aussie Mutant II please explain Renee by what you mean here. There is no such thing. The term "Mutant" is used with the other two Yellowface varieties. The aussie one is just referred to as Goldenface in either single or double factor form.

The problem has come about by one of our most prominent breeders calling a single factor australian yf (or goldenface in other words) an Aussie YF mutant 2 - bloody confusing. Really they are just referring to the single factor bird that has the very strong suffusion. It's because of that strong suffusion that WA judges in their immense wisdom decided to put the single factor aussie yf in the NSV/NSC class as it was considered that these birds were too far from the YF standard.

:fear Keep it up Gina! I LOVE it!We will all be "singing from the same hymn book soon" so I propose we get together and make a motion to right this confusing misnomer!Ooooops, we "nothingness" cannot do anything - it's UP TO YOU!

memememememememememememememe - I'd LOOOOOOVE to do a budgie girl barbie with all you super budgie girlies. (Gina scurries off to look at her diary). What day, what day? I have someone coming here on Saturday but I've gotta be in Perth Sunday to fly out sparrow's fart Monday morning - can bring some stuff to eat.

Sunday sounds good to me - KAZZZZZ????

You are welcome to come to mine for barbie and tutorial if you like?!

Edited November 18, 2009 by renee

[**KAZ** 0]

memememememememememememememe - I'd LOOOOOOVE to do a budgie girl barbie with all you super budgie girlies. (Gina scurries off to look at her diary). What day, what day? I have someone coming here on Saturday but I've gotta be in Perth Sunday to fly out sparrow's fart Monday morning - can bring some stuff to eat.

I am free Sunday

[renee 0]

memememememememememememememe - I'd LOOOOOOVE to do a budgie girl barbie with all you super budgie girlies. (Gina scurries off to look at her diary). What day, what day? I have someone coming here on Saturday but I've gotta be in Perth Sunday to fly out sparrow's fart Monday morning - can bring some stuff to eat.

I am free Sunday

 

okay Sunday it is! PMing you all details now!

[**KAZ** 0]

You can use my place Sunday if you like....it will be tidier by then

[renee 0]

You can use my place Sunday if you like....it will be tidier by then

 

I'm easy, let's let RIP and Nubbly decide on the venue?!

[RIPbudgies 0]

'Prominant Breeder' yes well, some of them have a lot to answer for. Problem is not necessarily these breeders. Desicions to rearrange rules ultimately come from the floor. If members either through apathy or ignorance allow the passing of these changes it is them that then have to live with it. If members don't like something don't pass it. Go away, think about it, do your homework, discuss with others the ramifications a decision will have.

 

At the tail end of my last foray into the world of show budgies the judges were dicussing this very problem (which is what they see it as). Besides myself who was judge in the late 90's there was only one other judge who specialised in the Goldenface. For many reasons both my ex and myself quit as judges, it was just not worth the hassle at the time. Goldenfaces are not a problem per se. It is the ignorance and lack of knowledge dessemination that keeps this a so called problem.

 

WA's move to segregate the single and double factor forms have done nothing to ensure the GF survival. In order to breed and therefore show the double factor form which is the one they want to see you need to have the single factor form in abundance in the aviary. It is the single factor form that needs to be continually upgraded and then occasionally pair two singal factors together to produce that double factor bird. By not allowing the single factor bird in the same class as the other YF's it ensures they will not survive. People get rid of them and by doing so are also getting rid of the potential to breed double factor birds.

 

Seriously WA needs to get their s%#t together. There has always been a minority running this state and I see it is still so. Problem is this minority are still getting it wrong. Result is what Renee expereienced at the show. The fallout will most likely be that Renee will give these birds away as it will be in the too hard basket for a number of reason's. Renee admits her genetic knowledge is lacking, that's fine, we as a group can help her there. The clubs should be helping to keep this variety alive, but they don't. It just gets sweep under the rug. The Rare Budgerigar Club of WA......what is it doing to help breeders of this variety? Nothing that I can see. I have been informed by a couple of members they don't even have lectures and at the only meeting I attended this was indeed true. So who is out there teaching genetics, variety recognition?

 

 

 

Renee your place is good for me for Sunday. I'll speak to my boss about getting somebody else to take the alarm calls. I can always do my afternoon patrols early. Kaz, Gina are you up for Renee's place.

[**KAZ** 0]

Kaz, Gina are you up for Renee's place.

As long as Renee doesnt cook

[RIPbudgies 0]

See what happens when you write stuff and hit submit reply and suddenly your post is out of date.

 

Kaz if you want it at your place no worries. Renee you will need to bring some birds for us to look at. I will still come over and help you choose which birds to take.

 

I will get my books together and bring them as they contain some great pics.

 

Is there anybody else on this forum who also wishes to be in this discussion?

Edited November 18, 2009 by RIPbudgies

[renee 0]

Kaz, Gina are you up for Renee's place.

As long as Renee doesnt cook

 

Oh I don't know, some people prefer scorched snags and torched steaks combined with limp lettuce and squishy tomatoes - at least you know you'll be getting good grog!

 

okay, back on topic.I will forget the term Aussie YF Mutant II and from now on in my mind refer to them as SF Golden Faces.

 

I am sure it has been said elsewhere, but what is the Visual difference between a SF and DF Yellow Face (is it the suffusion?) and WHAT happens if you breed YF to GF, visually and genetically?

Edited November 18, 2009 by renee