Combination Pieds

[Neville 0]

I'm posting this thread because I have noticed that combination pieds are often incorrectly labeled recessive or double factor dominant

 

The bird at the bottom of this family tree picture is a typical combination of dominant and recessive pieds. The points that identify her as a dominant pied are completely clear primary flight and tail feathers and the markings that she has are where a dominant pied would be marked. The splash of body colour high on the chest area is a bonus indicator. Her recessive pied features are very few markings and the base colour showing low on the body, also she is unlikely to develop iris rings. Male combinations usually have pink ceres.

 

Her father is a sky blue dominant pied that is split for recessive pied. He was bred from a male cobalt split for recessive pied and a female sky blue dominant pied.

 

The combination pied's mother is a T2 yellow face cobalt recessive pied. Her parents were a male yellow face cobalt split for recessive pied and a female opaline recessive pied

 

 

The pair produced the 5 chicks pictured in the 2^nd family tree picture. The expected outcome from this pair would be 25% dominant pied, 25% recessive pied, 25% normal & 25% combination pied

 

Edited August 30, 2009 by Neville

[Catherine 0]

THANK YOU, Neville. Now I understand why you said my hen is a combination pied. I am very pleased that she is and that I understand. I really like the combination pied and now I know what they are called.

[GenericBlue 0]

thank you nevile as although i still get them confused at times in pics i understood this and was getting sick of people telling me different

now mabe others will believe that you can get doms split for rec pied and that some birds look rec pied but is not ,nore are they df doms as with alot of my breed combonation pieds i own

all from dom split rec ,cross rec breedings or dom split rec x normal split rec breedings which gives a simulur out come with chance of combination pied and rec pieds and dom split rececives and recesives or normals ect ect

thanks mate cheers :hug:

[mysixbabies 0]

wow thats soooo technical!

Thanks for that, I did not know there was such a thing as combination pieds!

[nubbly5 0]

Great clear post. And great information.

[Daz 0]

Very well Done :hug:

[Elsa 0]

That's really interesting, I'd never heard of combination pieds. I was wondering about dark eyed clears though, do they come from a recessive pied and a dominant pied as well or are they something completely different?

[Jen144 0]

Dark-eyed Clears are Recessive Pied and Clearflight Pied.

[Elsa 0]

okay thanks.

[RIPbudgies 0]

What are the parents of the Grandparents in the pedigree?

[Neville 0]

What are the parents of the Grandparents in the pedigree?

The mother of the two grandfathers was a recessive pied - they are half brothers, their fathers were both normals. I don't know the parentage of either of the grandmothers

[RIPbudgies 0]

I'm posting this thread because I have noticed that combination pieds are often incorrectly labeled recessive or double factor dominant

 

The bird at the bottom of this family tree picture is a typical combination of dominant and recessive pieds. The points that identify her as a dominant pied are completely clear primary flight and tail feathers and the markings that she has are where a dominant pied would be marked. The splash of body colour high on the chest area is a bonus indicator. Her recessive pied features are very few markings and the base colour showing low on the body, also she is unlikely to develop iris rings. Male combinations usually have pink ceres.

 

Her father is a sky blue dominant pied that is split for recessive pied. He was bred from a male cobalt split for recessive pied and a female sky blue dominant pied.

 

 

The combination pied's mother is a T2 yellow face cobalt recessive pied. Her parents were a male yellow face cobalt split for recessive pied and a female opaline recessive pied

 

 

The pair produced the 5 chicks pictured in the 2^nd family tree picture. The expected outcome from this pair would be 25% dominant pied, 25% recessive pied, 25% normal & 25% combination pied

 

 

 

First of all I am not saying that Neville is wrong here. I am just pointing out a few anomilies.

 

If a theory, in this case lets say combination pieds, is to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt then a person must submit evidence that contains no flaws. The bird put up as a combination pied based on the pedigree supplied can be found to be flawed. The father is stated as being a Dominant Pied split for Recessive Pied but this bird may not be split for Recessive Pied. The grandfather was a Normal split for Reccessive Pied and so can pass on either a Normal or a Recessive Pied gene. So unless this bird was bred from first in order to prove its identity it cannot be said for certain the father is a Dominant Pied split Recessive.

 

Assuming the father is a Dominant Pied split to Recessive there is still doubt as to the result. The father can pass on the Dominant Pied or Normal gene and it may also pass on the Recessive Pied gene or not. So paired to the Recessive Pied hen the possiblities are as already said by Neville. No argument there. Those birds considered to meet the visual requirements for a combination pied would then need to be test mated in such a manner as to prove their identity before they can be labelled as combination pieds.

[Dean_NZ 0]

I'm posting this thread because I have noticed that combination pieds are often incorrectly labeled recessive or double factor dominant

 

The bird at the bottom of this family tree picture is a typical combination of dominant and recessive pieds. The points that identify her as a dominant pied are completely clear primary flight and tail feathers and the markings that she has are where a dominant pied would be marked. The splash of body colour high on the chest area is a bonus indicator. Her recessive pied features are very few markings and the base colour showing low on the body, also she is unlikely to develop iris rings. Male combinations usually have pink ceres.

 

Her father is a sky blue dominant pied that is split for recessive pied. He was bred from a male cobalt split for recessive pied and a female sky blue dominant pied.

 

 

The combination pied's mother is a T2 yellow face cobalt recessive pied. Her parents were a male yellow face cobalt split for recessive pied and a female opaline recessive pied

 

 

The pair produced the 5 chicks pictured in the 2^nd family tree picture. The expected outcome from this pair would be 25% dominant pied, 25% recessive pied, 25% normal & 25% combination pied

 

 

 

First of all I am not saying that Neville is wrong here. I am just pointing out a few anomilies.

 

If a theory, in this case lets say combination pieds, is to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt then a person must submit evidence that contains no flaws. The bird put up as a combination pied based on the pedigree supplied can be found to be flawed. The father is stated as being a Dominant Pied split for Recessive Pied but this bird may not be split for Recessive Pied. The grandfather was a Normal split for Reccessive Pied and so can pass on either a Normal or a Recessive Pied gene. So unless this bird was bred from first in order to prove its identity it cannot be said for certain the father is a Dominant Pied split Recessive.

 

Assuming the father is a Dominant Pied split to Recessive there is still doubt as to the result. The father can pass on the Dominant Pied or Normal gene and it may also pass on the Recessive Pied gene or not. So paired to the Recessive Pied hen the possiblities are as already said by Neville. No argument there. Those birds considered to meet the visual requirements for a combination pied would then need to be test mated in such a manner as to prove their identity before they can be labelled as combination pieds.

 

 

 

But the proof that the father is split recessive is born out by his chicks. The SF dominant pied chick and the YF cobalt chick are of course evidence that he is only a SF dominant pied. That the hen does not carry dominant pied is verified by her heritage. Therefore the other pied chicks which are clearly recessive in the least (not to say combination pied) verifies the father must be split for recessive pied.

 

That they are combination pieds themselves is as you say only verifiable by test breeding. But what would you suggest as ideal? Pairing the combination pieds to normals to see if only normals and dominant pieds are produced? Or pairing the combination pieds to known pure recessive pieds to see if you get recessives, and combination pieds (as really only definable by their visual distinction between siblings?)

[Neville 0]

Normally I would agree that a test mating should be done to verify the combination but in this bird the 2 mutations are very obvious. The first chick in the clutch looks like a combination to me but it would need to be test mated to be absolutely sure. Having bred a lot of pieds I do not have any trouble identifying the different types

[violetpiedmad 0]

Firts off just wanted to say that the 2 combo pieds are stunning!! I have never been a big fan of the recessive pieds, but something about those 2 I really like! I might give it a go with the violet factor, I assume you can get violet recessive pieds?

[**KAZ** 0]

I assume you can get violet recessive pieds?

Yes, you can get violet recessive pieds

[violetpiedmad 0]

Yes, you can get violet recessive pieds

 

Ah, great news..... might try that down the track!!

[Squeak_Crumble 0]

Is it possible that combination peids develop iris rings? I have a cock very similar to your hen, and I first thought rec. Pied. But he has now developed iris rings. He has the pink cere though?

[RIPbudgies 0]

Is it possible that combination peids develop iris rings? I have a cock very similar to your hen, and I first thought rec. Pied. But he has now developed iris rings. He has the pink cere though?

 

Not likely Squeak due the anti-dimorphic nature of the recessive side of the combination. The pinkish cere can still be a Dominant Pied it is just that the pied gene has acted in that location and not allowed the usuall development of the blue colour.

[Neville 0]

Update on this thread

 

The Combination pied hen is now grown up and has reared two clutches.

 

Her first mate was a recessive pied. Their chicks were 4 recessive pieds and 2 combination pieds. (The expected result would be half recessive pied and half combination pied)

 

 

 

Her second mate was a yellow face opalinespangle split for recessive pied. Their chicks were; a spangle recessive pied,an opaline dominant pied, a spangle, an opaline combination recessive & dominant pied spangle, a yf normal and an opaline recessive pied. (Not considering the yellowface the expected result would be 6.25% each of spangle (m), normal (m),recessive pied spangle (m), recessive pied (m), dominant pied spangle (m),dominant pied (m), dominant pied recessive pied spangle (m), dominant pied recessive pied (m), opaline spangle (f), opaline (f), opaline recessive piedspangle (f), opaline recessive pied (f), opaline dominant pied spangle (f),opaline dominant pied (f), opaline dominant pied recessive pied spangle (f),opaline dominant pied recessive pied (f)

 

[**KAZ** 0]

Would be helpful if the pictures you are posting were larger

[Neville 0]

Would be helpful if the pictures you are posting were larger

Here are some bigger pictures

The two cock birds

 

 

The first clutch

 

 

 

The second clutch

 

 

A back picture of 0790

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taylor 0]

I know this is an old topic but I have a dom pied opaline cinnamon sky blue hen. Does that make her a combination pied?

[**KAZ** 0]

I know this is an old topic but I have a dom pied opaline cinnamon sky blue hen. Does that make her a combination pied?

 

 

NO. she is a dom pied opaline cinnamon sky blue hen

[Taylor 0]

I know this is an old topic but I have a dom pied opaline cinnamon sky blue hen. Does that make her a combination pied?

 

NO. she is a dom pied opaline cinnamon sky blue hen

 

Thanks

Edited August 16, 2011 by **KAZ**