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Daz

Line Breeding / Inbreeding...

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Is line breeding inbreed? Yes!

 

What is line breeding and what does it mean???

 

WOW ohmy.gif a contriversal topic. Is it? I think so. ...and who would do it?

 

Well 99.9% of all breeders for show line breed.

 

All of the budgerigars outside of Australia have been line bred. How can I say this. Well 100 years ago Australia stopped exporting Budgerigars to the world. To supply budgerigars for sale, those with the stocks started to inbreed for the demand from the public.

 

During the second world war brittain was in short supply of food for the public let alone the seed for the birds. Many other europien countries were the same. Many birds were killed so that the few could survive. After the war the stocks had to be brought back. England couldn't get birds from Australia and were forced to inbreed but decide to have a very good look into how to go about it.

 

By selectively pairing the birds they found a way to strength and improve on the structure of the bird. right down to the health. Mean while in other parts of the world they were also looking down the same line. Germany was also inbreeding for improvement.

 

So how is it done. (Generally)

 

Cock X

Hen A .................... Hen B

 

1st year mating

 

Chicks .................... Chicks

Cock .... Hen ...................Cock .... Hen

Cock .... Hen ...................Cock .... Hen

Cock .... Hen ...................Cock .... Hen

Cock .... Hen ...................Cock .... Hen

 

2nd Year

Cocks from pairing of Cock x and Hen A are mated to Hens of pairing Cock X to Hen B

Hens from pairing of Cock x and Hen A are mated to Cocks of pairing Cock X to Hen B

(Half Brother to Half Sister)

 

3rd Year

Hens from the result are breed back to Cock X

Grandfather to Grand Daughter.

 

This is assuming that Cock X has really great features to start with.

 

Chicks from the 1st year mating will have half his genes and half from the hen.

Chicks from the 2nd year mating will only have a quarter of his genes.

Chicks from the 3rd year will have 75% his genes. This mating was ment to strength the strain...his strain....his line.

 

Other Combinations are Uncle to Neice, Aunt to Nephew, Cousin to Cousin.

 

The idea is to enhanse the features of the bird. Features also being health and fertility. besides the looks.

 

There are not many that breed brother to sister but it does occur.

 

This topic is in no way meant to promote line breeding but to explain how and why.

Edited by Daz
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Thanks Daz for that valuable information, I don't feel as bad now for the pairing of these two birds.

 

What would you think I could expect in colours.

 

Mum is a Golden Fallow and the son is this greeny yellow wingish one.

 

The Dad to this boy was a Light Grey yellow Face.

 

Would I get any Golden Fallows?

 

Cheers

Paul :hap:

Edited by Daz

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Guest eterri

Without knowing the full history of their birds, how on earth could a breeder responsibly inbreed (I refuse to call it line breeding unless it's actually being done by those who have STUDIED it and are doing it to improve the health of their birds, not the looks)?

 

You can point out the advantages but that doesn't make inbreeding in general right. Just because a handful of people know what they're doing doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

 

Should most breeders inbreed? Absolutely not. Genetics is a VERY complicated subject. How a bird looks cosmetically often says very little about how solid it is genetically because as much as I love show budgies, they are very very unnatural, faulty looking birds. When you breed to exaggerate what mother nature would call a fault, how do you start drawing the line on where you're going to concentrate on health and longevity?

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Without knowing the full history of their birds, how on earth could a breeder responsibly inbreed (I refuse to call it line breeding unless it's actually being done by those who have STUDIED it and are doing it to improve the health of their birds, not the looks)?

 

Those that do it are usually "in the fancy" (Breeding For Show). They do study the lines and the heritage of the birds they breed and are prepared to pay thousands of dollars for the birds.

 

You can point out the advantages but that doesn't make inbreeding in general right. Just because a handful of people know what they're doing doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

 

The members of the Australian National Budgerigar Council and the World Budgerigar Organisation and the other Associations around the worl really could not be called a handful of people.

 

Should most breeders inbreed? Absolutely not. Genetics is a VERY complicated subject. How a bird looks cosmetically often says very little about how solid it is genetically because as much as I love show budgies, they are very very unnatural, faulty looking birds.

 

Should someone inbreed or not? Thats not up to me to say.

 

Is there any benifit to the birds? A Man by the name of Joe Mannes has been breeding Budgerigars for decades and has bred into his birds not only looks and power but longertivity. Is there a benifit...possibly.

 

When you breed to exaggerate what mother nature would call a fault, how do you start drawing the line on where you're going to concentrate on health and longevity?

 

Well man has done this to many animals. Chickens, cows, horses, pigs, ........... We alter nature to suit our wants and needs. I'm not going to say if it is good or bad. That's up to the indervidual.

 

Thanks Daz for that valuable information, I don't feel as bad now for the pairing of these two birds.

 

What would you think I could expect in colours.

 

Mum is a Golden Fallow and the son is this greeny yellow wingish one.

 

The Dad to this boy was a Light Grey yellow Face.

 

Would I get any Golden Fallows?

 

Cheers

Paul :ausb:

000_0176.jpg

son.jpg

 

Male is a spangle

Chicks should be normals and Spangles all split to fallow.

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okay if it's the same mum and son mix you had before which it sounds like ( can't see picture on this computer) then the son would be an oplaine spangle. And yes you have a chance of getting fallows from these two.

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Nerwens right. I was thinking that fallows where sex linked but they're not. :hap:

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Guest eterri

I'm going to duck out of this conversation after this, I just wanted to say that it is very naive to assume that an entire group of breeders is doing everything the right way. No one is perfect and face it, breeding for show IS (as you said) for your own desire. The focus is usually not on health and longevity or show budgies wouldn't exist.

 

I do have respect for breeders, I love learning about every aspect of budgie ownership. But obviously, my ideas and feelings are on a different track and I have a far different motivation. Admittedly, I hope some day that more people adopt a very simple frame of mind: Health over Cosmetics. It may or may not ever happen, but it definitely has to start somewhere.

 

I've heard many, many, MANY breeders talk about things that are blatantly harmful to their birds but they've done it for years and so continue to do so. Not all harmful things are completely obvious. I hope we all keep our minds open in BOTH directions. A breeder can do wonderful, awesome things for his/her birds but he/she can just as easily do horrible, irreparable damage. There is no saying "this entire group of people is doing it right/wrong." It all boils down to the individual.

 

And please, one thing I do sincerely ask (from one forum member to forum moderator) is that when you're dispensing your knowledge you do it carefully! Telling someone that inbreeding can be done successfully but failing to point out the massive amount of research that should be involved is like saying "sure, it won't hurt a thing!" and this isn't true. We have to be so careful when giving advice here because people DO look up to you and the other experienced breeders here and they DO take everything you say seriously and to heart. A lot of responsibility goes along with that. You aren't at fault if something happens to their birds as they are ultimately responsible for learning what they need to know BUT you are in a good position to share a lot of good, helpful things with many different people. Lots of budgies could benefit from having influential budgie ambassadors, so to speak. :hap:

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Terri thank you for you point of view. It is alway good to here all sides of a topic and if my first post on this topic is reread it states This topic is in no way meant to promote line breeding but to explain how and why.

 

As far as the issue of health and longertivity issue I know I can't convince you that breeders, and I mean top breeders not the back yard budgerigar factories, are very much into this feature but think about this. A top breed in Perth bought 4 budgies at the last aution for $11,800.00 aud and then paid for them to be shipped across Australia 8000km don't you think he would want these birds to be the healthest and live the longest.

 

This is the level of breeding that I am entering. I don't know if I ill ever get to that level but my view of my birds are to have the healthest and live the longest.

 

when you're dispensing your knowledge you do it carefully! Telling someone that inbreeding can be done successfully but failing to point out the massive amount of research that should be involved

 

This statement should be put to every person that breeds two birds. Terri what you are saying is that no one should breed two birds unless they have their back grounds. But how far back should they go? 2 generations, 4, 10 , 20? You would need to go back many generations to see if the birds are not related at all. This is not always possible unless yu buy your birds directly from a breeder that keeps records.

 

Terri your birds could be related if you got them from the same pet store. If a breed sells all his birds to a store over a year and you buy 3 birds from that store over that period. They may well be all brothers and sisters. Being different colours and types might mean that you don't know they are related. I am very sure that the store will probibly not tell you that they are or who the breeder is. So I guess you shouldn't breed those birds because of lack of that knowledge.

 

Terri you humble me with your comments of how other members precive me.

 

There is one problem that can occur with line breeding and that is fertility it can be lost over time. But I supose that stops the breeder line breeding all togeather.

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i would just like to commend you both on the way you have put your points across on what can be a delicate subject

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Thank you both. I have seen a few posts regarding this subject and Know to those out side the Fancy that it is a touchy subject. Hense the opening Post.

 

It is a matter that is best put forward to explain what it is all about in a clinical sence. Morally it is up to the indervidual to make up his or her mind.

 

Here is some further information for those that wish to delve deeper into the mechanics of this form of breeding.

 

Information from the Budgerigar Association of America on Line Breeding

 

More information - 1. - 2 - 3 - 4 and one on Budgerigars

Inbreeding - Blessing or Curse?

Edited by daz

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Thanks Daz And Nerwen for your info,,,I am hoping to get babies like the mum.

 

Thanks again

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

 

What would you think I could expect in colours.

 

Mum is a Golden Fallow and the son is this greeny yellow wingish one.

 

The Dad to this boy was a Light Grey yellow Face.

 

Would I get any Golden Fallows?

 

Cheers

Paul :hap:

000_0176.jpg

son.jpg

Male is a spangle

Chicks should be normals and Spangles all split to fallow.

Edited by daz

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Greens would be the go but I'm not sure about Fallows. I have had much to do with them. Nerwen might know. :hap:

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I am about to put some of this into practice and see what the outcome is. In this case it is grandmother to grandson. I wouldnt breed any closer relationship myself...not right now anyway.

Edited by KAZ

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Good luck. As said in the linebreeding topic pinned in Breeders chat this is how I bred a brilliant line of working ferrets I have also seen some good working dogs bred this way (mine included). A good way to fix your line/traits if done with the right family

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Good luck. As said in the linebreeding topic pinned in Breeders chat this is how I bred a brilliant line of working ferrets I have also seen some good working dogs bred this way (mine included). A good way to fix your line/traits if done with the right family

I have all the family info...all family from a winning line and all family healthy and robust.

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I see that this topic has come up again.... I have carried out much of my breeding with related pairs. The closest would be half brother to half sister. Cousins and Uncle to neice or Aunt to Nephew.

 

There have been some good results. Enough for me to continue.

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I see that this topic has come up again.... I have carried out much of my breeding with related pairs. The closest would be half brother to half sister. Cousins and Uncle to neice or Aunt to Nephew.

 

There have been some good results. Enough for me to continue.

 

 

here here i do a form of line breeding with a twist i know each and every birds family history back to their grand peronts and well i get good rezults never a bad bird yet

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god im full of it i have lines i breed from i dont line breed

but hay i know lots do

i wouldnt try not uless the wizzard of oz gave me a B R A I N :reading: :reading:

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Information and good recordes are the key to any form of breeding. Wether it is line or not. There are some lines I have that I know what I can expect. Others I am just finding out about.

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This is a subject that not everybody will agree as shown by previous posts.

 

I did it. :)

 

Inbreeding of with Line Breeding is type, is best thought of as a tool. If you consistenly outcorsses to individuals who are either extremely distantly related (don't forget all budgies go back to the same ancestor) you never consolidate certain features. Show budgies are inbred fairly close to increase the features that are required on the show bench.

 

The closest of all inbreeding is the brother and sister pairing. :) In some cases it can be carried out very successfully and in other it has disasterous results. If you are trying to establish a new variety this type of pairing must be considered. I have done it when it was warranted but a mere handful of times over twenty years.

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We will be line breeding next season :)

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This is a discussion that comes up from time to time. There has been many people change there minds on the subject and worth another look.

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inline breeding seem to be a good way to protect your stock

Edited by **Liv**

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inline breeding seem to be a good way to protect your stock

 

 

I don't know about protecting your stock.

Line breeding or any form of breeding two animals together is the merging of features both visual and non visual.

 

By breeding closely related animals you can enhanse their features, both good and bad. By noting the outcomes, you can best understand the hidden features in a line. It can take years to uncover traits and with good record keeping you can get a better understanding of how to pair up the birds for better success.

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I was lucky enough to have Daz advise me with regard to this recently at my request, and I am following some advice to create two lines in my aviary from some good stock. Its an interesting aspect for a first time at line breeding for a novice.

 

 

I have a hen I call Omelette who has produced some very nice chicks...15 chicks so far with some ready to breed now.

this is Omelette....DSCF1687.jpg

 

DSCF1691.jpg

 

DSCF1685.jpg

 

DSCF1693.jpg

 

and this is her green boy Stud...

newguys040.jpg

 

 

I also have Studs brother....DSCF8850.jpg

 

Studs brother is being paired to Omelette next to produce some chicks that can be paired across her other chicks later on.

 

Also this hen chick ( from Omelette and Stud ) ommieshen.jpg

 

will be paired soon to Omelette's brother ( her uncle )

DSCF8281-1.jpg

 

PS Daz I hope I got these explanations right, but I thought it was a good idea to show an example.

Edited by KAZ

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