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Kaj

Fallows, Lacewings Or Something Else- Please Help

15 posts in this topic

This is dad- a normal cobalt, split to ino and opaline.

2015-03-18%2014.27.11a_zpshvw8qspo.jpg

This is mum - yellow faced dominant pied. These two have produced albinos and creminos.

2015-03-18%2014.28.24a_zpsydlimbzf.jpg

 

The next three pictures are some of their offspring - all with red/ruby eyes.

The first I initially thought was a female lacewing which I now believe to be a male fallow. I don't know much about fallows but because the long tail feather is a dark blue and it is male, I believe it cannot be a lacewing. Can anyone offer any help regarding type of fallow and what this means re the parents genetics?

2015-03-18%2014.30.45a_zpssjgcdzcc.jpg

The next one, I believe is a is a white-faced female lacewing. Again can anyone offer any explanation re genetics? e.g. mum or dad carries cinnamon gene???

2015-03-18%2014.29.18a_zpstjmrmtln.jpg

The last offspring is a yellow faced male lacewing. This I don't understand because I thought lacewing was a sex-linked mutation suggesting that the baby would need to be female. So how can this be?

2015-03-18%2014.43.56a_zpssoiotqop.jpg

Can anyone offer an explanation of how the mum and dad were able to produce these offspring?

What should it tell me about the genetics of the mum and dad and the offspring? Do I have the mutations of the babies correct or am I wrong?

Please help because I am intrigued.

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Hi beautiful babies,

I believe you have given the correct mutation for each one. Was this the only pair inside the cage or did you have other birds when you bred them?

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You wouldn't have been able to get a fallow from this pair, have you got any fallow birds that you currently have breeding?

Edited by BUDGIE L0V3R

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I only cage breed - there are no other birds in the cage (and no wired sides to other budgie cages) - which why I am so intrigued by this offspring. Also I have no other fallows at all. Are you able to shed any light on what type of fallow the first male baby is?

Also are you able to explain why the yellow faced lace-wing is a male - aren't lacewings sex-linked. So if dad is also split to lacewing and mum is not a lacewing (or can she be masking this), shouldn't lacewing offspring be only female?

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There is only one way you have gotten a fallow, both your parents are split for fallow. (Sorry I didn't realise both could be split earlier)

Are these pictures taken in the last couple of days? Lacewing is a sex linked gene and can't be masked, you may find that the baby appears to be male but it will most likely change into a female cere.

Also your second bird wouldn't be called a white face lacewing, it would be an albino lacewing. Looks like an opaline as well.

Edited by BUDGIE L0V3R

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okay so means that females can be split for fallow also and not just masking it? However I never new that a female could be split for a sex-linked gene such as lacewing. Is lacewing an exception in this regard?

 

It will be interesting to see if the yellow faced lacewing in the last photo changes to female-at this stage by both behaviour and cere he presents as male but is only 10 weeks- the pictures were taken about 2 weeks ago.

 

Dad is split to opaline (as they have also produced opaline offspring) and his mum was a violet opaline and dad a recessive pied. (I do not the parentage of the dominant pied mother as she was a purchase.) Unless opaline is really obvious, I don't see it. Are you able to explain in this case. Thanks also for taking the time to reply to my post.

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A female can't be split for lacewing, only a male can. All your ino birds have to be female.

Ino birds normally mask a mutation, as they are pure white or yellow you can't see the markings but they will sometimes have markings on there body.

On the albino lacewing, the cinnamon is only on the wings and not through the back, this is what suggests to me that she is opaline.

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So if the white-faced lacewing should be called albino lacewing opaline then is the yellow-faced lacewing a cremino lacewing?

Or could this lacewing actually be some type of cremino fallow which would then explain why it is male? Unlike the albino lacewing, there is some cinnamon colouring on its back - but not tail. Here is another picture

2015-04-02%2011.33.06a_zps0olvm1kc.jpg

and zoomed in

2015-04-02%2011.33.06b_zpsyb2zbh6d.jpg

Edited by Kaj

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it could be a good explanation as to why it is appearing to be a male, but I believe the cheek patches are violet for a fallow. The creamino has white cheek patches which would indicate it isn't a fallow.

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it could be a good explanation as to why it is appearing to be a male, but I believe the cheek patches are violet for a fallow. The creamino has white cheek patches which would indicate it isn't a fallow.

 

I agree with Budgie lover. Both of the parents must be split to fallow in order to produce that fallow chick. There is the possibility that the white cheek patch on the creamino is due to being "pied out". When a bird is pied, some of the pied areas affect the cheek patches, so you would expect to see violet and white combined there. Cheek patches on pied birds are very variable. Since this chick seems to be extremely pied, it is very likely that all of the violet of the cheek patches just happens to be pied out. So I think it could still be possible for the creamino chick to be a fallow.

 

Actually, since this pair has produced a definite fallow, but no actual proven inos or lacewings in the past other than these two suspected ones (did I get that right?), then I think it's most likely that all three of these chicks are fallows, and not lacewings at all. I wouldn't say that definitely, but do you know any more about the background of the father, since you bred him? Do you know back any further generations? Because there would have to be both ino and cinnamon somewhere along the line in order to get the lacewing combo. (I.E., you know that the father is split to opaline from his mother, but how do you know he is split to the ino gene?)

 

But I suspect these chicks are fallows, because they just seem to have too much color bleeding into them to be lacewings. Color bleeding into the body of inos is possible, of course. I just would expect it to be more like a sheen, than actual color that gets stronger on the rump.

 

You might want to check on Facebook, because that seems to be where all of our genetics experts and people with experience breeding fallows and such have gone to. Or you can send PMs to Kaz, Nubbly5, Neville or RIPbudgies. (They are the ones that were very knowledgeable about genetics.) If you are lucky, they will have their PMs set up like mine, where it goes to their regular email, and they might see it and respond. I believe I have seen Neville active on TalkBudgies as Nev90, if you want to check there.

 

Good luck!

 

Oh- I just noticed something- How dark are the violet on this one's cheek patches? On a lacewing, they are supposed to be a pale violet. Maybe that can give you more clues. They seem a little darker to me than the lacewings that came up in my image search on google.

 

2015-03-18%2014.29.18a_zpstjmrmtln.jpg

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Actually, since this pair has produced a definite fallow, but no actual proven inos or lacewings in the past other than these two suspected ones (did I get that right?), then I think it's most likely that all three of these chicks are fallows, and not lacewings at all.

 

 

Hi finnie,

I understand what you're saying with this but I just think it is way to unlikely to have all 3 being fallows. When breeding 2 splits together you only have a 25% chance of a visual fallow, 50% chance of normal/fallow and 25% normal. I know this is the expected % over the course of there breeding and that it would be possible to have more than 1 fallow in a nest but I just don't think it would happen.

 

Also I read somewhere (can't remember where I found it) that breeding 2 split fallows together would be a waste of the fallow gene as it is unlikely to produce hardly any at all.

 

Although it is possible to have all 3 fallows, there is no guarantee on what they are

 

 

Well i remembered about a post from a while ago and had a quick look for it, I think finnie is on the right track with more than 1 bird being a fallow.

http://forums.budgie...32986&hl=trefto

Your white bird may in fact be a cinnamon fallow, looks almost identical coloring to your bird.

 

But i don't think the yellow bird is a fallow, I am fairly confident on that one being a creamino lacewing, I have one that looks very similar.

 

But if the creamino turns out to be a male (like it is currently looking) that would mean you have gotten 3 fallows from this pair

Edited by BUDGIE L0V3R

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Thanks Finnie and Budgielov3r for taking the time to reply and discuss my post - much appreciated.

The parents have previously produced together albino and cremino offspring. Also the grandfather (dad's dad) has produced albino and cremino offspring.

Also there is no colour on the rump of the albino (opaline?) lacewing (or fallow)

Thanks for the tip on PMing the genetic experts-will do and I have posted talkbudgies also as Nev can no longer be PMed on this forum (although after posting I noticed he has not been active since mid 2014)

 

BL - thanks or your suggestion - I will looking the cinnamon fallow option. As I am so convinced that the last one is a male, I think it will turn out to be a fallow. If this is the case, what type - German, etc?

 

In regard to the albino lacewing (or fallow), as the parents have produced both ino and now cinnamon babies combined with the lack of body colour, makes me still inclined to believe that it is a lacewing.

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All these babies are German fallow. The 2 lighter ones being cinnamon fallow and the top one being a normal fallow. The 2 lighter ones will be hens as the cock bird is also split for cinnamon. The give away is the body colour evident on both of the "faux" lacewings as in reality lacewings will show NO body colour or some light suffusion/sheen only.

 

I have bred a number of these in the past myself.

 

I am not convinced that the last one can be 100% called a male at this stage with the lighter colouring around the nostrils but if it does, then there is a bit more going on than just cinnamon fallow. It is also a pied too so wing markings have been significantly reduced and also shows a clear cheek patch so any clues from cheek patch colour cannot be gained in this instance. But the fact that you CAN see rump colour makes it more likely for fallow than lacewing.

 

Yes, 3 from 3 is usual but it's a 25% chance for every egg.

 

Oh and just a note - ino and lacewing are 2 different mutations. Calling them a creamino lacewing only serves to confuse. A lacewing is in fact a cinnamon ino as the ino for some reason does not fully remove the cinnamon markings. Ino's show no marking what so ever.

 

The easiest way to determine if lacewing or ino is involved is repair the cock bird to a known normal (non fallow carrier hen). The production of a lacewing hen will or not over a few nests will give you that answer.

Edited by nubbly5

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Actually just having thought more about that 3rd baby. It could also be a normal fallow just highly affected by the pied gene. It would be more helpful to make a determination once this bird has moulted into it's full adult plummage, as well as shown us 100% to be male or female.

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Thanks for joining the discussion Nubbly5 - your expert opinion is very much appreciated.

 

Just to clarify - no.1 was from a clutch of 8 last year

1 female albino

3 female creaminos

I female sky blue opaline

1 male Yf2 dominant pied

2 male (what I now believe to be fallows) - no.1 shown and another similar in colour to no.3(which was sold)

 

 

The other 2 babies were from a recent clutch of 6: -

2 female albinos

1 male and 1 female Yf2 dominant pied

No.2 female fallow

No.3 male fallow

Edited by Kaj

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