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hi all.

 

well from what im hearing it is one drop on the back of the neck with this ivermectin product.

 

well... today i went to the petshop, and in my eyes a really good quality pet shop

that can be trusted, and is extremely caring of all their animals.

 

and i went up to one of the staff and asked her if they stocked any product to cure scaly face.

and she seem to know what she was talking about and lead me straight to a product by "Aristo pet"

 

called "Scaly face and leg treatment- for caged birds".

 

so the product is specifically used for scaly face, ...but it contradicts what you are all saying.

 

the bottle directly states... "DIRECTIONS FOR USE: Apply to affected area once a day for 3 to 4 days. Apply

with cotton bud or small brush. Prevent bird from ingesting material by holding head firmly during application.

Repeat this treatment 1 to 2 weeks later to avoid re-infestation".

 

so what do you all have to say to that?

and from what i know "aristopet" is a fairly respectable and trusted brand.

It is a 25ml bottle, and its active constitutents include:Benzyl Benzoate and liquid parafin.

 

please please tell me whether i am doing the right thing treating my bird with this product??

thanks grant.

 

 

 

The product you saw is an application kind designed for pet budgies you can handle and catch every day to treat. It works for early scaly face but not advanced. Scaly face that has progressed to the eyes and feet and begun mis shaping the beak will not get better by using aristopet. It is no different to using oil on the beak.

If you have a pile of budgies and ones that arent pets you use the ivermectin spot on method, which in my experience is the best thing out.

If you want to believe in petshop products and rely on petshop staff thats up to you.

I pay $9 for my spot on from the vet. How much was your aristopet product ?

Edited by KAZ

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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i know the one i get is not mixed with water something im sure but not water

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why cant they make ivectobudgie, drop on for budgies so its not given orally lol, this is all really confusing

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why cant they make ivectobudgie, drop on for budgies so its not given orally lol, this is all really confusing

 

 

Now you are confusing me :D

 

Ivermectin is spot on. What are you asking ?

Edited by KAZ

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why cant they make ivectobudgie, drop on for budgies so its not given orally lol, this is all really confusing

 

 

Because the amount they would sell to bird owners compared to the many thousands of dollars that it would cost them to register the product specifically for budgies is not worth the effort. Besides we all use it now registration or not so in effect they would not really be gaining extra sales dollars by doing so.

Edited by nubbly5

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Ivomec sheep drench is not water soluble it's solvent based - that's one of the issues with it if you use it as a bird oral treatment. As one of our previous threads shows: http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....showtopic=24762

 

Cattle pour-on is also solvent based but is used undiluted.

 

Bird specific ivermectins are water based for flock treatment in water.

 

All ivermectins must be protected from sunlight.

 

Also there are subtle differences between products registered in different countries so while our Ivomec sheep drench in Aus is solvent based and undilutable in water (as is the US formula) NZ may well be different. Just been to Argentina where there are different forms of Ivermectin again to what we have here in Aus.

 

Sorry to be pedantic Dean but this IS my field - I deal with animal health products every day of my working life and although I don't specifically sell Ivomec I am well aware of the product (many of the available generics) and the different ranges available as they compete with products that we market.

 

And yes worms and any pests can build resitance to chemicals and drugs - cocci, worms, lice, mites you name it.......

 

Don't apologise nubbly! The whole reason I pasted that info is because, as I said, that is the info I was going off because I felt it was from a trust worthy source. I was HOPING for discussion and clarification if possible. As long as someone can assure me that one or the other type of ivermectin is effective and going to work then i'll be happy.

 

One further question to ask though. How often should we alternate mite/worm treatment products to prevent resistance developing? And what product would we use as an alternate? Cattle pour on is used primarily, so our switch out option would be??

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Hi all, I have a budgie (lychee) that has lately developed scaly face and legs. Now Lychee isn't the most compliant of birds to being caught, so from reading over these posts would a vet do the spot on ivermectin on him? Or is this one of those Bugie enthusiast trade secrets? :)

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Hi all, I have a budgie (lychee) that has lately developed scaly face and legs. Now Lychee isn't the most compliant of birds to being caught, so from reading over these posts would a vet do the spot on ivermectin on him? Or is this one of those Bugie enthusiast trade secrets? :)

Yes a vet would, but you are better off buying the product for future use as well not just having one budgie treated.

Edited by KAZ

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Ah, okay. Just three more questions:

1. Would you find Ivermectin in farm animal produce shops and for how much? (I have one near my place)

2. How much would it cost to have a vet administer it (ballpark so I don't get a rude shock come bill time)

3. Since there toenails are a bit deformed, would I need to clip them, and how long would it take for the treatment to kick in?

 

Thanks for the help!

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Ivomec sheep drench is not water soluble it's solvent based - that's one of the issues with it if you use it as a bird oral treatment. As one of our previous threads shows: http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....showtopic=24762

 

Cattle pour-on is also solvent based but is used undiluted.

 

Bird specific ivermectins are water based for flock treatment in water.

 

All ivermectins must be protected from sunlight.

 

Also there are subtle differences between products registered in different countries so while our Ivomec sheep drench in Aus is solvent based and undilutable in water (as is the US formula) NZ may well be different. Just been to Argentina where there are different forms of Ivermectin again to what we have here in Aus.

 

Sorry to be pedantic Dean but this IS my field - I deal with animal health products every day of my working life and although I don't specifically sell Ivomec I am well aware of the product (many of the available generics) and the different ranges available as they compete with products that we market.

 

And yes worms and any pests can build resitance to chemicals and drugs - cocci, worms, lice, mites you name it.......

 

Don't apologise nubbly! The whole reason I pasted that info is because, as I said, that is the info I was going off because I felt it was from a trust worthy source. I was HOPING for discussion and clarification if possible. As long as someone can assure me that one or the other type of ivermectin is effective and going to work then i'll be happy.

 

One further question to ask though. How often should we alternate mite/worm treatment products to prevent resistance developing? And what product would we use as an alternate? Cattle pour on is used primarily, so our switch out option would be??

 

 

That IS the question Dean. In sheep production there have been many instances of worm drenches becoming ineffective due to over use/poor use. The advise has been varied from double summer drenching (2x drenches in short succession in summer when worm eggs don't survive well on pasture) to the now common advice to do worm egg counting and only drench those sheep that are shedding a large number of worm eggs (indicating a large worm burden present) and this is generally only young stock as older animals tend to bulid a semi immunity/resistance to the worms themselves.

 

All the current worm drenches available for sheep are now no longer fully effective (apart from organophosphate combos) and strategies for rotation are implemented on a yearly basis. Sheep lice have also developed resistance to most of the chemicals available to treat them and rotation strategies are only just being discussed at farm level now with the scientific community undecided on the best approach.

 

For cattle treatment, widescale drenching is only usually practiced on youngstock (the most susceptible to worm burdens) with adult stock rarely treated. This has left most cattle drenches still effective.

 

For horses routine 6 weekly worming treatment has lead to widespread resistance to every available worming product (whites, clears and mectins). So it seems that the more selection pressure you place on the pest the faster you force the population to evolve. Thinking about it, if you drench hard the only pests you leave behind are those that are resistance or maybe just semi tolerant so the harder you select out the susceptible individuals, it becomes quite obvious that the NON SUSCEPTIBLE pests are the only ones left behind to multiply and presto you have a resistant population.

 

Thats all nice but it doesn't help us much. I have never really heard of a reasonable product rotation developed for bird treatment and the trouble comes for when trying to find something else to rotate to. Each family of chemicals must be considered together i.e. all mectins, all white drenches (called bz's), all clear drenches. There are different actives that belong to the same family and rotating between these is not actually rotating at all as chemicals affect the pests in the same way and therefore a cross resistance develops. So for rotation sake ivermectin is the same as abermectin is the same as moxidectin etc. From what I can see we have little to nothing to rotate to. For mites and lice we can rotate between SP's (synthetic pyrethroids (AIL, fly sprays and surface sprays are all SP's) or ivermectin. I have not seen any other compounds that can be used in birds. OP's (organophosphates) are not suitable as birds are extremely sensitive to them (as one of our forum members found out when using a cattle spot-on whose active is an organophosphate and lost almost every bird that they treated).

 

For worms I think that there are only 2 different compounds available, a clear drench (piperazine or something like that) that I've seen in pet shops and ivermectin in the many different forms that we use. Does not leave too much choice really.

 

The best bet would be to monitor the effectiveness of worm treatment by doing pooh samples or sending away pooh samples to see if your worming program is still effective. And maybe rotate your chems once every year or two to break up the selection pressure a bit. Maybe figuring out if, like other animals, it's just the young stock that is more affected by worms and using treatments for them only. The trouble is that production systems that make $ for the economy are always going to get better research $ that the budgie hobby. Hey it was amazing enough that one PhD student wanted to do her thesis on French moult otherwise we'd all still be trying to point the finger at moths or mites or genetics and not know that it is in fact a virus..........

 

Oh and Randmness best bet is you get a price from your local store - ring for a price quote and ask for the cost of the smallest pack they have. As it is this will treat many budgies for a long time so maybe better to go the vet route anyway. Ring both and see the price difference. The vet will charge you a standard consult plus whatever extras they decide to put on (cost of ivermectin plus margin etc) but lots of different vets have lots of different consult prices.

 

Or you could contact a budgie club near you and see if they might be willing to sell you some ivermectin treatment..........

Edited by nubbly5

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okay, just been to see our local vet to check out our little stud boy Whippet and whilst I was there I asked him how good he was with birds - not very was the answer BUT his WIFE did her honours thesis on Budgie worms of all things. I asked her about worm resistance to ivermectin in birds and her comment was that there was no REPORTED cases of resistance to ivermectin in bird worms. Also as a side discussion we discussed hearthworm preventative treatment and as yet (after about 20 years of using ivermectin to prevent heartworm) there is also no reported cases of heartworm resistance to ivermectin.

 

I also asked what rotation options we might have. Wormout Gel was one of them and we had a look at the label. It's a combo of a white drench (bz) and a tapeworm active. This actually might be a really good rotation treatment option as ivermectins DO NOT treat tapeworm. Although tapeworm is relatively uncommon in budgies it can still affect them and it may well pay to rotate to Wormout gel every couple of years to break it up a bit as well as ensuring tapeworms are adequately treated too.

 

We did not discuss Piperazine so that also might be an option for rotation too.

 

Although my vet was not too concerned that we might be building resistant worm populations based on actual numbers treated and frequency of treatment, the theory that lice and fly vet entomologist guru Dr Gary Levot discussed would indicate that it could well be a problem. Any population placed under selection pressure might develop a resistant strain and continual use of one chemical places continuous selection pressure on that population so there is a chance in my opinion.

Edited by nubbly5

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Fantastic posts nubbly! Much appreciated. :rofl:

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Hi, I have my invomec but i am looking for some advice on what to use to apply the one drop. Cheers

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Hi, I have my invomec but i am looking for some advice on what to use to apply the one drop. Cheers

Chemist shops sell dropper bottles ...the kind they use for eyedrops.

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Hi, I have my invomec but i am looking for some advice on what to use to apply the one drop. Cheers

Chemist shops sell dropper bottles ...the kind they use for eyedrops.

thank you :question:

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A cotten bud,dose a good job,you could

do a 100 birds,with only a cap full of ivomecton.

Just hold the bird & run the cotten bud up under the feathers

& onto the skin, :wub:

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Is it okay to use Ivomec after the use by date? I have a 250ml bottle with about 245mls left, exp date March 2011. :redalbino:

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Is it okay to use Ivomec after the use by date? I have a 250ml bottle with about 245mls left, exp date March 2011. :redalbino:
2011 unless im a year behind thats not out of date B)
A cotten bud,dose a good job,you coulddo a 100 birds,with only a cap full of ivomecton.Just hold the bird & run the cotten bud up under the feathers& onto the skin, :)
that would take forever ... it takes me hours with a dropper let a lone dragging a cotten bud up the whole birds back

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I see a cotton bud as wasting the ivermectin. A cotton bud could hold four drops and only release a smear at a time. Considering dropper bottles are readily available from most chemists ( they use them for eyedrops ) ....if you have a bottle that doesnt come in dropper form you put it into one of those bottles.

 

Womens logic :redalbino:

Edited by KAZ

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Is it okay to use Ivomec after the use by date? I have a 250ml bottle with about 245mls left, exp date March 2011. :rofl:
2011 unless im a year behind thats not out of date :D

Hi GB, It doesn't expire until next year but there is no way i am going to use 200ml in 10months and i was wondering should i give/sell what i don't need now or is it okay to use after expiry date?

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Hi rachelm

The manafacture puts a date for a reason, as in when you buy milk. it may seem okay but they want back the product once out of date. Me no, I wouldn't use it but then I have 4 cows to share with it.

 

Jack

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Here is a warning, a budgie breeder from around here bought some ivermectin from a bird stall I think in Sydney and applied it to his birds (nest feathers I think and lost the lot), SO BE careful what you buy as what he bought would of have to been oral or the one for sheep.

I always buy mine from the vet. last year I bought some from a stall at one of our shields and I think it was watered down because my birds had lice after Kaz will tell you that :rofl: . So I threw that bottle away and went back to my vet and bought some good stuff. :D It is dearer at the vet but at least I am not wasteing my money on inferior products.

 

I use cotton buds and find it mush easier to apply.

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Here is a warning, a budgie breeder from around here bought some ivermectin from a bird stall I think in Sydney and applied it to his birds (nest feathers I think and lost the lot), SO BE careful what you buy as what he bought would of have to been oral or the one for sheep.

I always buy mine from the vet. last year I bought some from a stall at one of our shields and I think it was watered down because my birds had lice after Kaz will tell you that :rofl: . So I threw that bottle away and went back to my vet and bought some good stuff. :D It is dearer at the vet but at least I am not wasteing my money on inferior products.

 

I use cotton buds and find it mush easier to apply.

i get the same size bottle from vet as they sell at the sheilds

i only pay 10.00 theirs is eighteen

so im happy with that

i dont use mine after the date vet said it will keep one year in fridge

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Here is a warning, a budgie breeder from around here bought some ivermectin from a bird stall I think in Sydney and applied it to his birds (nest feathers I think and lost the lot), SO BE careful what you buy as what he bought would of have to been oral or the one for sheep.

A good part of the problem here may have been dosage strength compared to bodyweight iof the nestfeathers. The one drop of the right strength product is based on a 30 gram average bird. Some may be either side of that in weight.

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Here is a warning, a budgie breeder from around here bought some ivermectin from a bird stall I think in Sydney and applied it to his birds (nest feathers I think and lost the lot), SO BE careful what you buy as what he bought would of have to been oral or the one for sheep.

A good part of the problem here may have been dosage strength compared to bodyweight iof the nestfeathers. The one drop of the right strength product is based on a 30 gram average bird. Some may be either side of that in weight.

 

if doing chicks in nest or just out your ment to drop just above their oil duct gland so it takes a bit longer to go through out their system

i do mine in nest i do on bum not neck if in nest i never had issues i guess it depends on you dropper size also :rofl:

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