Red & Pink Budgies

[Derek 0]

Below is an extract from John Scoble's book, The Complete Book Of Budgerigars. He discusses the posibility of a red and/or pink mutation and the fact that it has appeared before.

 

What are your thoughts

 

Budgerigars with obvious pink and red colouring have appeared on two separate occasions in Australia since 1945. Both cases were authentically recognized as true colouring and were used in breeding.

 

In the outer suburb of Melbourne, Mr Ron Jones bred about a dozen birds with decidedly pink colouring. The colouring was evident on the top of the head of sky blues and cobalts.

 

An official from ther Budgerigar Council of Victoria advised Mr Jones on how to pair the birds in order to improve the pink colouring, and on hios next visit the official was able to report that the numbers had increased to twenty, and on some the colouring had improved to a brick red.

 

About this time there appeared a newspaper stories about black and pink budgerigars being bred. These stories were accompanied by photographs and it appeared the birds had been dyed. Mr Jones rang a Melbourne newspaper to advise them that he had been the first to breed pink budgerigars and, a story was printed which, unfortunately, the bird's existence and whereabouts were disclosed. Soon after this, Mr Jones stayed away from his residence overnight, leaving it unattended. On his return the next day he found all the birds had been stolen and that even the eggs that were incubating were squashed in the nest. Police found no trace of the birds and there has been no known re-occurrence of any such birds

 

The second discovery was made by the late Sid French while walking in a Sydney suburb. He noticed an albino with a large red spot on it's head. The bird was a pet in a small cage and he approached the owners who, after a short conversation revealed that they had bred the bird themselves in a small colony aviary.

 

They gave him the bird and the supposed parents, a Blue/Albino cock and an Albino hen. He paired these birds and many other pairings later with the red spot Albino. None of the progeny showed any indication of red colouring. One morning in disgust Sid took the red-spotted Albino outside and threw it in the air. He never saw it again and concluded that it was only a sport and would never reproduce the visual red pigment.

[Elly 0]

I don't know enough about the information to give an opinion but it sure would be interesting.

[Sailorwolf 0]

That is sad about the first guy. How horrible that is and how stupid of the newspaper.

The second guy should have gotten hold of the parents of the albino bird. Because that mutation may have occurred after it was conceived meaning the mutation is in the somatic cells of the body and can't be passed down to next birds, although it may have a genetic predisposition to developing the mutation. The parents may create babies that are genetically predisposed to mutating this way. But if the mutation occured in the somatic cells with no genetic influence then the mutation won't be passed on to its young.

It would be awesome to have a red budgie.

[melbournebudgies 0]

That would be very cool, I guess if it has hppened once it could happen again.

 

Sailor, the article says he did have the parents too.

[birdluv 0]

too bad the second guy threw away his bird.

[Indz♥ 0]

 

Hay I just did a science test on Mutations and Genetics haha

[timbo.1 0]

interesting. i've read about the albino in a budgie book years ago

[Guest DrNat]

YES

[Derek 0]

YES

 

Hi DrNat

 

I have heard you are a very good source on genetics of budgies so with your short response I have to ask ..........

 

YES, it can happen?; or

YES, it has happened?

 

 

Derek

[Guest DrNat]

YES

 

Hi DrNat

 

I have heard you are a very good source on genetics of budgies so with your short response I have to ask ..........

 

YES, it can happen?; or

YES, it has happened?

 

 

Derek

 

YES to both.

 

okay, I will explain my answer................. Very long explanation ensues...............

 

It has happened before, it can happen again. The answer is yes.

 

The colour that we perceive an object to be is our visual perception of the wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation we call visible light that are reflected back to us from the object.

If only one wavelength is reflected, that is the colour we perceive. If a multitude of wavelengths are reflected we see a "colour" that is the combination/interaction of those wavelengths - example: white light is the combination of all the wavelengths of the spectrum of visible light - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.

 

Trees appear green to us because we perceive the chlorophyll pigment that absorbs other wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation but reflects visible green wavelength of light. Trees use the other wavelengths to power photosynthesis. Absorbed light can convert to heat - eg we see an object as black if it absorbs light - and in absorbing light that is converted to heat it becomes hotter - black cars are hotter... literally! White and yellow cars reflect light and are cooler!

Notice how things look different colours under different types of light, and if we are looking through different coloured lenses that filter out certain wavelengths of light - eg rose coloured glasses. Hence why lighting is such an important consideration in photography as it affects the colour of the images produced. Have a look at your budgies through different coloured pieces of cellophane (the cellophane is a filter for the wavelengths of light except the wavelength of colour it appears). If you look at your blue budgies in bright midday natural light through a piece of red or purple cellophane, you will clearly see which ones are carrying violet, they will look bright through the red cellophane by comparison to the ordinary blues. If you train your eye, you can also detect the green budgies that carry violet more easily by doing this.

 

The predominant light or combination of wavelengths that are emitted from the sun we perceive as yellow our main source of light, so it is natural that budgies (a desert bird in the sun lots) would have a yellow pigment to reflect excess light, so as not to heat up too much. (Aren't birds wonderful - equipped with features to survive both too much heat and too much cold). This yellow pigment is psittacofulvin or psittacin for short.

 

Birds can see colours that most people can't - they can see UV spectrum. This is important for breeding since Hens prefer males with fluorescent UV pigment reflecting feathers. See this website: http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/2002/archives/2002?p=821

Also people have varying degrees of colour perception - colour blindness etc.

 

So colour is the wavelength or combination of wavelengths of visible electromagnetic radiation that we perceive reflected back to us from an object, in this case a budgie.

 

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

A violet budgie with red chest feathers is rumoured to have existed recently - I do not have any further information on who, whereabouts or if offspring have been produced - would suggest anyone who has red budgies would keep them under lock and key, and 24 hr security surveillance in a very safe secure location that no-one knows about, and not tell another living soul until ready to part with them!!!

 

The red budgie is a contentious issue. Some "authorities" on genetics do not believe that the red budgie is possible because budgies do not produce a red psittacofulvin/psittacin pigment - I am not an "authority" on genetics but I say bah! Bah to authority in general!!! Other parakeets produce red pigments, it is nature and anything is possible, and it has already happened before, therefore could again. However, whether such a mutation will occur again and be able to reproduce itself is speculative. But I firmly believe the red budgie will appear - either true or red-looking. Most likely red-looking. When, I can not say.

 

The "true" red budgie would be a specific mutation of the DNA that codes for the enzyme that produces the psittacin pigment. Such a mutation would have to change the enzyme such that it produces a pigment with structure that reflects predominantly red wavelength of visible light instead of yellow. Unlikely in the budgerigar, but not impossible considering other parrots have red pigments. Easily possible by artificial means if a genetic scientist could genetically engineer such a budgie by cutting and pasting the genes for red pigments from other parrots into the budgie genome, or directly messing around with the budgie genes - but lots of potentially bad consequences of messing with nature in this manner. I would rather be patient and wait for nature to do it just privately, because you just never know the unexpected consequences of stuffing it up - never know what other scourge might be created.

 

A red-looking budgie is most likely to be bred through violets since dispersion of light through a violet budgerigar of altered feather structure could cause us to perceive a red wavelength of light. An example of splitting or dispersing the wavelengths of light is the rainbow - where sunlight is dispersed into constituent wavelengths by passing through a mist of water droplets.

 

I believe this because in art - red and blue together make violet, violet where the blue is cancelled out leaves red.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on everything, but the first step to achieving something is believing it is possible, then asking how could it be possible, then taking action to make it possible.

 

The wonderful ability of nature is that DNA mutates all the time. This is grand design to assist adaptation and survival of a species in changing conditions.

 

Red budgies will appear...

 

YES.

[Norm 0]

Very interesting article thanks for your time. DrNat.

[**Liv** 0]

Great info DrNat

 

I have to agree with what you said too. I have always said that the pink/red gene will eventually come from the violet gene. Selective breeding of violets, looking at their colour and breeding the ones with the least about of "blue" pigment i feel will eventually breed out the blue all together and leave a very light pink.

 

Anyway, however it happens, I look forward to seeing one :hap:

I wouldn't be surprised if they use this little parrot to help things along. Not necessarily manipulating DNA in a lab, but crossing the types etc

 

HERE

[Norm 0]

I thought you were taking about Bourke’s Parakeet Liv, even before looking, they are such nice little birds, don’t think a hybrid between them & Budgie would be fertile, but I have often thought they must be the next bird that will become one of the worlds favourite pets, they are so beautifully quite, when I bred them before you didn’t need any training they would fly onto your head or shoulders as soon as you entered the aviary. I had one cock that was real smart as soon as I open the aviary door he was out into the bird room, I would let him have his fly around & when I finished I would open his door & wave my hand up in the air & he new that was his signal & flew back into his aviary.

[**KAZ** 0]

My ex father in law swears he once bred a BLACK budgie when he was a 12 year old breeding budgies. I questioned him on it and he states categorically that it was black all over and no other kind of colour or barring on it. Unfortunately before he was able to show it to anyone it died upon fledging. This person is not known for lying and at the time this happened he didnt really know that black budgies were nigh on impossible...but he swears to this day...he bred a fully black budgie.

Edited April 23, 2008 by KAZ

[**Liv** 0]

I have seen the Bourke's Parrot in shops before and have always loved their colour. I didn't realise they are also beautiful on the inside too

 

Perhaps they did breed the budgie with the Bourke's, and the hybrid was (like you say) infertile, which would explain why the colour did not become readily (pardon the pun hehe) available with breeding.

Edited April 23, 2008 by **Liv**

[Guest throwback]

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor

Edited April 23, 2008 by throwback

[**Liv** 0]

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor :budgiedance:

 

:budgiedance:

[Derek 0]

Thanks for that Nat.

 

I love your quote .............. it doesn't just apply to breeding budgies.

• the first step to achieving something is believing it is possible
  
• then asking how could it be possible
  
• then taking action to make it possible.

Thanks again

 

 

Derek

[Guest throwback]

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor

 

 

The Orange is what they used to call " hot coloured lutino." These are bred by using dark factor birds. Many breeders of old had these, Margery Kirby-Mason, Harry Harrison to name a few.

I have no doubt that Jorge DePina acquired some of these lines from his mate Binks.

Mr Harrison had the best show quality Lutino's, like the one below.

 

">

 

I'm sure pink and red mutations have popped up from time to time. Even with a nest box full of pink or red young it may not be enough to establish a line. Which I'm also sure is what has happened in the past! But it's nice to dream Derek! One day it may be you!

What would you call this? A Pink face greyType 2 Recessive pied?

 

">

Edited April 23, 2008 by throwback

[Derek 0]

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor

 

 

The Orange is what they used to call " hot coloured lutino." These are bred by using dark factor birds. Many breeders of old had these, Margery Kirby-Mason, Harry Harrison to name a few.

I have no doubt that Jorge DePina acquired some of these lines from his mate Binks.

Mr Harrison had the best show quality Lutino's, like the one below.

 

">

 

I'm sure pink and red mutations have popped up from time to time. Even with a nest box full of pink or red young it may not be enough to establish a line. Which I'm also sure is what has happened in the past! But it's nice to dream Derek! One day it may be you!

What would you call this? A Pink face greyType 2 Recessive pied?

 

">

 

 

Last one looks like a cross between a budgie and a galah.

[Sailorwolf 0]

The only problem with light is mixing colours doesn't work like paint. Paint primary colours are red, blue and yellow. Light primary colours are red , blue and green. In our eyes we have three coloured recepters called cones. There is a red cone which only recieves red light, a green cone which only recieves green light and a blue cone which only recieves blue light. TVs work on this same principle. The electrode cathode ray Tvs (however you say that!) have only red, green and blue lights, but they manage to make yellow and purple and orange colours! Yellow is produced by red and green light mixing together. I don't know what produces violet for us. Perhaps it is blue and red, but that might make another colour. Humans are trichromatic (can see 3 colours, red, blue and green) in their colour perception generally and birds are tetrachromatic (they can see 4 colours, red, green, blue and UV), although it is not uncommon for some women to be tetrachromatic. So girls some of you out there can probably see some form of UV light! So if the pink was to be produced by light reflecting crystallised structure of feathers it may not come from the violet. Although I would think it would anyway. Thus the colour red may be produced by some other means that we may not have even thought about yet.

 

Onto Mutations: DNA can mutate any time. Infact each of us have many thousands of mutations in us at the moment and we will just continue to accrue more. The thing with budgies is that they could have a mutation in their DNA that could change the structure of the feather or the protein to reflect red. this could happen randomly and may happen in just one feather follicle on a bird, or in one area of the bird or the entire bird. The mutation may be somatic, meaning that it occurred in the body cells and will not be passed on to its young as body cells are not involved in reproduction. The mutation could occur while it was an embryo, a foetus an adult bird or and elderly bird.

However if the mutation were to occur in gametes, the cells that produce eggs and sperm, the mutation will be passed down. It may not be seen in the parent bird where it originated from, but the offspring bird will carry this mutation in every single cell in its body, including its gametes and thus it can pass the mutation down.

The mutation that occurs may be a new mutation or it could cause a throwback to a previous mutation that existed in the bird's ancestors. i.e. the mutation that caused it to be more budgie-like may be reversed by a new mutation to make it seemingly revert to a previous colour. What I mean is that somewhere in the budgie's ancestry there may have been a red bird. A mutation could have occurred that caused this red to either be hidden or changed to yellow (or some other colour). A mutation in a present day budgie may cause the previous mutation to revert, causing a genetic throwback and a red budgie. This can happen in humans too. One example that I think fits is when humans develop more than one set of nipples. Mammals have a mammary line that runs down both sides of their ventrum and is very well observed on dogs and cats. Humans have it too, however nipples are only ever stimulated to grow up the top. But if something goes wrong humans can grow nipples all the way along this mammary line and look like a dog. This is a throwback to our pre-primate days. We still have the mammary line left over, but it isn't used.

 

So a red budgie is definitely possible, it just depends how many mutations need to occur to produce and then show the red colouring

[Derek 0]

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor

 

 

The Orange is what they used to call " hot coloured lutino." These are bred by using dark factor birds. Many breeders of old had these, Margery Kirby-Mason, Harry Harrison to name a few.

I have no doubt that Jorge DePina acquired some of these lines from his mate Binks.

Mr Harrison had the best show quality Lutino's, like the one below.

 

">

 

I'm sure pink and red mutations have popped up from time to time. Even with a nest box full of pink or red young it may not be enough to establish a line. Which I'm also sure is what has happened in the past! But it's nice to dream Derek! One day it may be you!

What would you call this? A Pink face greyType 2 Recessive pied?

 

">

 

Norty, norty. I have just tracked down the origins of this little so called pink budgie. It was bred by Barrie Schutt in the UK and the pink coloring is from a food additive.

[Guest throwback]

Pink looking budgies already exist.

An orange looking budgie exists - have a look at Jorge DePina's (show breeder from Brazil) website you will see a picture of an orange looking budgie in his pictures of "unforgettable birds".

http://www.budgerigar-world.com/pina/default_I.htm

 

Forget the orange bird! Which it's not!

What about the other bird!! The stud's vet doctor

 

 

The Orange is what they used to call " hot coloured lutino." These are bred by using dark factor birds. Many breeders of old had these, Margery Kirby-Mason, Harry Harrison to name a few.

I have no doubt that Jorge DePina acquired some of these lines from his mate Binks.

Mr Harrison had the best show quality Lutino's, like the one below.

 

">

 

I'm sure pink and red mutations have popped up from time to time. Even with a nest box full of pink or red young it may not be enough to establish a line. Which I'm also sure is what has happened in the past! But it's nice to dream Derek! One day it may be you!

What would you call this? A Pink face greyType 2 Recessive pied?

 

">

 

Norty, norty. I have just tracked down the origins of this little so called pink budgie. It was bred by Barrie Schutt in the UK and the pink coloring is from a food additive.

 

 

Derek

I never said that the pink one was a real pink budgie. This picture has been on here before and someone already revealed it's origin. The Lutino picture is real! although the one on Jorge DePina site is also questionable.

I always, when looking at any picture of a different mutation have a fair bit of skepticism!

[Guest DrNat]

As I said with colour. It is perception based. If it "looks" like a pink, orange or red bird, then... well... it "looks" that colour.A green bird is not really green. It just "looks" green. There is no green pigment. The green appearance is caused by the overlay of yellow pigment on a blue base.Neither is there a blue pigment. The blue appearance is caused by light reflecting off either black, brown or grey melanin/eumelanin inside the body feather through the feather structure.

The only problem with light is mixing colours doesn't work like paint. Paint primary colours are red, blue and yellow. Light primary colours are red , blue and green. In our eyes we have three coloured recepters called cones. There is a red cone which only recieves red light, a green cone which only recieves green light and a blue cone which only recieves blue light. TVs work on this same principle. The electrode cathode ray Tvs (however you say that!) have only red, green and blue lights, but they manage to make yellow and purple and orange colours! Yellow is produced by red and green light mixing together. I don't know what produces violet for us. Perhaps it is blue and red, but that might make another colour. Humans are trichromatic (can see 3 colours, red, blue and green) in their colour perception generally and birds are tetrachromatic (they can see 4 colours, red, green, blue and UV), although it is not uncommon for some women to be tetrachromatic. So girls some of you out there can probably see some form of UV light! So if the pink was to be produced by light reflecting crystallised structure of feathers it may not come from the violet. Although I would think it would anyway. Thus the colour red may be produced by some other means that we may not have even thought about yet.Onto Mutations: DNA can mutate any time. Infact each of us have many thousands of mutations in us at the moment and we will just continue to accrue more. The thing with budgies is that they could have a mutation in their DNA that could change the structure of the feather or the protein to reflect red. this could happen randomly and may happen in just one feather follicle on a bird, or in one area of the bird or the entire bird. The mutation may be somatic, meaning that it occurred in the body cells and will not be passed on to its young as body cells are not involved in reproduction. The mutation could occur while it was an embryo, a foetus an adult bird or and elderly bird. However if the mutation were to occur in gametes, the cells that produce eggs and sperm, the mutation will be passed down. It may not be seen in the parent bird where it originated from, but the offspring bird will carry this mutation in every single cell in its body, including its gametes and thus it can pass the mutation down.The mutation that occurs may be a new mutation or it could cause a throwback to a previous mutation that existed in the bird's ancestors. i.e. the mutation that caused it to be more budgie-like may be reversed by a new mutation to make it seemingly revert to a previous colour. What I mean is that somewhere in the budgie's ancestry there may have been a red bird. A mutation could have occurred that caused this red to either be hidden or changed to yellow (or some other colour). A mutation in a present day budgie may cause the previous mutation to revert, causing a genetic throwback and a red budgie. This can happen in humans too. One example that I think fits is when humans develop more than one set of nipples. Mammals have a mammary line that runs down both sides of their ventrum and is very well observed on dogs and cats. Humans have it too, however nipples are only ever stimulated to grow up the top. But if something goes wrong humans can grow nipples all the way along this mammary line and look like a dog. This is a throwback to our pre-primate days. We still have the mammary line left over, but it isn't used.So a red budgie is definitely possible, it just depends how many mutations need to occur to produce and then show the red colouring

Ah... I love this discussion! Excellent information. Thank you. And, yes aware of tetrachromatic human females. The "primary colours of light" can't really be referred to as primary colours because "light" is a continuous spectrum. Perhaps more correctly they are primary colours for humans because that is what our visual receptors are primed for. Rod receptors allow us to perceive light and dark. There is interaction between cones and rods and our neural processing of the light received by them = perceiving value, chroma and hue of different colours. Edited April 27, 2008 by DrNat

[Derek 0]

Your getting to darned technical for me now. Hehehehehehehe :hap: